Through The Lens of Vendors - Greg Reffner

Greg Reffner joins Irina on WFM Unfiltered with a refreshingly blunt take on what really goes on behind the scenes of B2B vendor-client relationships. With years of experience navigating the high-stakes world of tech sales and customer success, Greg shares war stories that will make you rethink everything you thought you knew about vendor partnerships. If you've ever sat in a meeting nodding along while a vendor promises the moon, this episode will hit uncomfortably close to home - in the best way.

From the red flags customers ignore (until it’s too late), to the uncomfortable truths vendors are too scared to say out loud, this episode dives into the cracks where broken implementations, failed partnerships, and buyer’s remorse hide. Greg doesn’t just talk about the problems—he pulls them apart. You'll hear about the RFP disaster that nearly derailed a government deal, how loyalty in vendor relationships is more myth than reality, and why change management often fails before it even begins.

Irina and Greg also get into the people side of tech delivery—exploring how the wrong team structure can sabotage your success and what it actually means to be “data-driven” in people management. There’s plenty here for WFM leaders, CX heads, procurement pros, and anyone responsible for transformation initiatives to take away—and a few reality checks for vendors too.

This is an honest, challenging, and incredibly insightful episode that will arm you with the kind of real-world knowledge that doesn't come from polished case studies or sales decks.

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Transcript

Irina: 0:23

Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of WFM Unfiltered, and we have a mission for today's episode. My guest will have to learn some Bulgarian episode and we're gonna be talking about vendors. So it's gonna be a very fun one. But before we start, Greg, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Greg: 0:46

I'm doing fantastic. I'm excited to be here and I don't know any Bulgarian, so if I walk away with one or two words, I'll consider that a win. And I play soccer once a week and I have some Bulgarian and Russian people on my team, and they always say a bunch of stuff that I don't know what they're talking about. So it'd be cool to.

Irina: 1:03

I have some ideas. I think I know what they're saying and I don't think I should use it

Greg: 1:09

It's

Irina: 1:09

directly.

Greg: 1:10

appropriate for this.

Irina: 1:12

Yes. But I will teach you say either.

Greg: 1:15

I did. I did.

Irina: 1:18

come on, let's go. Let's start. So before we start with the topic, please introduce yourself.

Greg: 1:27

Yeah, so my name's Greg Reffner, founder, CEO of abstract, real time call coaching, automated QA platform. in software for 11 years. That makes me sound old when I say it like that. married 2 beautiful boys. Another boy on the way. Love life, all good stuff. So excited to be here.

Irina: 1:50

Oh, great stuff actually. And congratulations. Now you're making me be a little bit softer on you because you're a vendor and you know my opinion and how I handle vendors. But, for today's episode, we decided to reverse a little bit the topic, and last week, was it last week that I was on your show.

Greg: 2:13

Yeah. Like less than five days ago, something like that,

Irina: 2:16

It feels like last time in our universe, like constantly something happening, but actually that's a good opportunity. Why don't you introduce the show as well?

Greg: 2:25

Yeah, so, abstract, KPI Contact Center podcast. really just focuses on, contact centers. Holistically, and we try to dive into different KPIs or different strategies, tactics. I know in our conversation we had last week, it was fun breaking that pace because, we talked about a different subset of categories, like we didn't focus on, we, spoke, Focused on like general relationship with vendors, buying, selling processes, which kind of crosses across all different software types, whether it's work from home, software, contact center software, CRMs. so it's a nice change of pace to have you on.

Irina: 3:11

So it's a great show. Fantastic one. I'm gonna link it in the show notes and it's definitely one that the listener should follow up. And let's dive in into our topic about vendors. And I'm notorious for being very tough on vendors and their delivery, or not delivery and the way that they're handling prospects and customers. But to be absolutely fair, things are going often south from a prospect perspective as well. So I wanna hear you from a vendor perspective. What can go wrong in discovery calls in implementations? And what are usually the mistakes that prospects makes whilst they're entering in a relationship with a vendor?

Greg: 3:56

It's gonna be, this is gonna get spicy. What's the Bulgarian word for spicy?

Irina: 4:01

Oh, do I need to use the curse words?

Greg: 4:05

Just like this is gonna get a little spicy. mistakes. I don't know if you had mistakes is the right word. Irina, I think. A lack of knowledge around how to buy. and that is, I don't know if the prospects, if they're at fault or if the vendor's at fault is probably shared. think one of the biggest things that I've seen in my career, 11 years, the biggest mistake, if you had to pinpoint one down, would be, Paralysis by analysis, just overthinking, trying to solve every little nuanced problem you can put it together an RFP, and the end result is no one's gonna meet your requirements because your requirements are unique to your organization and, your pro. Like when, folks look at. a platform that's supposed to solve every single one of their 600 problems listed on their RFP. they're gonna be disappointed because either A, vendor's gonna lie to them about what they can do. B, the vendor's not gonna lie, but they don't have it. They're gonna build it. If they win the RFP or three, the vendor can do everything on that list, but they don't do it well because it's impossible to do that many things Well. And so I think just this idea that you need to overanalyze, overthink, if you have a problem, go find a solution and fix that problem and put it behind you. You don't need a committee. You don't need 17 different vendors as part of an RFP. find a problem, find a solution, and move forward. that's the biggest, mistake

Irina: 5:45

All right.

Greg: 5:46

people make.

Irina: 5:47

I love that, and I fully agree on this one, and usually I have also seen it in a way that, let's say the contract is already made, but for some reason the customer isn't happy. They decided that the solution is not fit for purpose, and then they start hanging onto every single little thing that this tool is not supporting. Which was never a requirement to start off with. But let's try to dig into this one because it is very important. where as a vendor we draw the line, like where do we say, okay, you know what? Maybe this prospect is gonna be more work than it's gonna be worth. Like when do we say no?

Greg: 6:30

I'll give you anecdotally a good example for abstract. Like we tell folks no all the time and we use. We base that decision off of previously lost customers, Irina. So when we look at like our customers that we've lost in the past, whether it be for our fault or for the prospect's fault, we throw those things out. Like within the first 10 minutes of meeting somebody Hey, Irina, I wanna get to know you. I'm gonna share some things. I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. And based upon the answers to that, like we're gonna be able to figure out if we're a good fit or not. I'm gonna tell you if we're not a good fit, and I think. fascinating is folks don't expect that. They don't expect to be told by a salesperson that like they can't give them their money. but we've used, we use historically historical data on what hasn't worked to set the stage for if you do this, or this, or you have this or you want to do this, we're not a good fit for you. go talk to this company over here. and I think that's like the best thing you can do is just use historical data just to know what a bad fit customer is and be upfront with folks about it.

Irina: 7:40

Let, me think about that. I don't think I've ever heard about vendors saying, oh, we lost customers publicly. That's refreshingly honest. Oh my God, you're stopping me in my tracks. You know what I think for me as a customer,'cause I'm the customer that you don't want to piss off because I'm very demanding. I'm gonna be very vocal, particularly, so if you tell me this is where we stand, this is what we deliver, this is what we absolutely cannot deliver, chances are that I'm going to choose you because I can trust. Where I stand with you, if you start selling me roses and unicorns and fluffy rainbows and clouds, forget it. Forget it. I'm just gonna call you on your shit right away. But I don't think I've heard that. So tell me, in that process of discovery, when you received that RFP with 700 things, is there a way that you can educate the prospect in which, do you think it's not feasible or maybe. Often there is a knowledge gap that they think they need something, which is not even a good practice to have.

Greg: 8:51

Yeah, great question. What I would say is depending on the type of the organization, so we recently got a RFP from a government entity in California. And what's interesting about this is they sent us an email two years ago telling us that they were gonna be begin building this RFP and we should expect to receive it. And I was like, okay, cool. Like I'll look forward to that. Two years later we got that RFP. And I just immediately was like, Nope, not interested. if a company takes two years to put together a requirements list, there's no amount of time or energy I can spend that's gonna change their mind on why something's important or not. Like just, it's not gonna happen. At least not in the, it's not gonna be worth the time that I need to spend to do that. Now on the flip side, if somebody comes and they're like, Hey, we got, we're getting sued by this government entity because we broke compliance, or we're about to lose our license, and so there's real pain and they're trying to solve for something right away, and maybe that list of requirements is a little bit off. sure, we'll spend some time and say, Hey, anecdotally. Here's some examples of where that is. God wrong. we had a customer try this and this was the result. Have you thought about that? we've had a customer fail trying to do X, Y, Z and here's why it failed. Have you thought about the consequences of that? so I will spend time trying to help folks out based upon kind of the catalyst that's prompting them to want to get potentially engaged with us in the first place. very long answer to your short question.

Irina: 10:38

No, I like it because I always like thinking from different perspectives, and for me, the vendor side is one that I don't explore often just because. I know from user perspective it's so difficult to secure the budget for a tool, but once we secure that budget, we are like, we want everything. And this is not realistic. And often vendors are put in that situation of... we know we can help you, but to get you, sometimes we have to throw dust in your eyes, like just to get you across the board so we can start helping you. But it was also great examples for you, but it made me think about the discovery and sales process because often the people involved in that phase are not gonna be the people that are using the software. What is happening from vendor perspective? If, let's say, in our environment you're meeting the contact center manager, you're having great conversation. He or she or they're not the specialist, they're deciding that they love your company, love the approach, signing it, and then they're transferring your two to be introduced to the QA team, the WFM team, whatever team, and it's going caput.

Greg: 11:58

So, great question and something that I think, We initially were really bad at, as a company, Irina, we've gotten better at it, but we realized that how the software is a handed off, and B, that communication is just as important as everything else. And so we actually now, when our customers will offer it and say, Hey Irina, I know you're gonna go hand this off to your team over here. Can we work with you on how you're gonna deliver that message or how you're going to introduce this? Let us be a part of it, right? Let us share with you the right way to write this email or let us help you put together the presentation because like we've seen this blow up, we've seen it not go well, and to let us help you with that. And when our customers allow us to collaborate on that project, it goes really well. Sometimes they do it on their own. It goes really well. Sometimes they do it on their own and it goes horribly. And then they come back to us and they're like, Hey, can we take you up on that to try to fix this? And then say, yes, of course. I think from a vendor's perspective, you never stop selling. So whether like you don't stop selling the moment the contract's signed, now you're selling. Frontline manager A, user B, on why they should continue to use the product and the platform all the time. And so that's customer success's job to keep selling and keep the momentum once the contract's been signed.

Irina: 13:31

Interesting. So what happens in your world once you're introduced to people that not necessarily have the knowledge, expertise, or will be able to handle the two in a good way? So to, give you example, from my side, I have been in situations where I'm training people. It's very clear they're not for this role, but they've been put on this role for whatever reason they're comfortable with their process because it's manual, because it doesn't require a certain logic, which is not gonna be the case with a sophisticated system. But I need to train them. I need to sell them the idea that actually this is gonna be optimizing their work. It's going to be helpful, and I'm facing the wall. It's like not happening, like it's not working. Thank you. But no. What's happening in your head then?

Greg: 14:25

so the blunt side of me, the. My, my dad and me would say, adapt or die, right? Hey, if you're not willing to change, you're gonna be replaced by software or by somebody who is willing to change. And so, Mr. And Mrs. Frontline manager, if you're not willing to change, I'm gonna find something. Or someone that is willing to, in a lot of industries, there's a level of. Complacency or comfort that has res, that has resulted in people not being forced to change and organizations not being forced to change or adapt. And with the introduction of AI and the pace at which it's evolved, there's now a lot of companies that are playing catch up. And I think a lot of folks are coming to the realization that they're probably gonna be out of a job real fast. If they can't adapt and change. And so from a vendor's perspective, It sucks to say Irena, but like we've had hard conversations with a VP or a director level and say, Hey, like this person over here, they're hurting your business. And I know we've had an influence in getting that person removed from that team we're not just selling a platform, we're selling a solution, and this person is hindering your ability as an organization to move forward. Here's why. And so, yeah, as a vendor, be like, Hey. It can lead you to water, whether it's your choice, whether you wanna drink it or not, there's just a certain level of complacency and comfort that I think people get into you that creates resistance, and that resistance is gonna get overcome by software. Like you're gonna out be out of a job if you're not willing to adapt.

Irina: 16:12

I think this, one is potentially a huge, cultural difference and different in markets. because in Europe we are very employee driven and I keep on saying that in the majority of our recordings. So I've often been in situation, including when I became. Manager I knew because I was coming out of this, team, became a manager and I knew exactly who is doing what and how and who is not doing anything. And there was very apparently people that were just not fit for this team. They didn't have interest, they couldn't do the job, and it was not fit on both ends. But they were comfortable there'cause they were getting a salary and they were a part of this company for 10 plus years. Right. So at the moment I started opening, the conversation is, Hey, my team is not healthy. I speak with this person. They don't wanna change, they don't wanna adapt, they don't wanna learn. Then it's a hard message to sew up the ladder because then I'm basically saying, yeah, you kept this person for 10 years and the person. it's better not to be a part of that company, but also we can't just let go of people, which would be the difference with, the us. I imagine if you are saying, you're not delivering, the door is right there. We can't do that, and most of the management teams will be like, who are you to tell me, been here in two weeks, that this person who is in the company 10 years is doing nothing. So how, do you cope with that cultural difference?

Greg: 17:52

Oh, so many thoughts. many opinions on that.

Irina: 17:57

It is a shitty spot to be on. I know I, I've been there so many times.

Greg: 18:02

so one of my favorite books is called From Good to Great. somewhere Behind Me. talks about like you don't just need the right people on the bus, you need the right people in the right seats on the bus to move the business forward. And, in the United States, you can't like, sure, we have at will employment, which allows you to literally fire anybody for any time you want. but. It's easier if you have data to back it up and proof points, right? And so regardless of whether I'm in Europe or Asia South America, north America, I think you look at and you use data objective, you're not subjective about it. There's no emotion. objective proof points around performance or lack thereof, and the business impact. And you almost go and. Build a mini ROI case like, here's why this person no longer deserves to be here, or Hey, this person's great a person. We like their character, we think they can do great. Go put'em in this role over here.'cause they can do that job and they can do it really well. Maybe they're just in the wrong seat on the bus. They need a different seat. So use data, be objective about it. Don't, make it emotional. And ultimately what I would say is if you bring it up, you build a solid reason, some proof, hey, here's historical performance. your boss is like, Nope, we're still gonna keep this person around. Probably wanna look for a new company to work with.'cause that company's probably gonna die.

Irina: 19:43

You know what, I'm not sure if it's gonna die. but especially big corporations, there are people that basically are from the get go straight from high school in the same company and are having this. The entire career in the same company, and they can be fantastic, right? But there are also people that have not been exposed to anything else, don't wanna learn anything else. And these are exactly the type of people that usually are gonna be like. Who are you to tell me how to do my job or how to do my business? And for me, it's so fascinating when I see how well companies can be, but how stuck they are just because they're facing the roadblock of their own employees sometimes.

Greg: 20:31

Yeah, it's, there's no perfect answer, right? And it's going to differ from company to company the culture that's built, right? some companies build an amazing culture where subpar performance kind of organically works its way through, and like people are naturally just pushed out of the company as a result of the fact they no longer fit in the culture. So, I think it's a, complicated. Answer, but ultimately, like you just, you look at the rate at which things are changing, right?

Irina: 21:06

Elon

Greg: 21:07

Musk just introduced Grok 4, that scored 16% on the AI test. time it took it a year ago, it scored 8%. So it's doubled an intellect in the past year imagine I, think one of my, quotes from a podcaster that I was listening to, he said, Hey, if your job has a job description, it's gonna be replaced by ai. And I think, again, if you're not willing to learn it and you're not willing to change, you're gonna be replaced by it. Because companies will realize it doesn't sleep, it doesn't talk back, it never takes sick days. And it's more accurate and it doesn't have faults. And so adapt or die,

Irina: 21:48

I think this is where your sales process starts to break with certain people because it scares them to a point when they're saying, why do I open the door for my own replacement? That's how a lot of people are translating ai and not only ai, like traditional technology that has no way, it's just purely automation of processes. They're thinking, okay, I know my job is copy pasting stuff, manually listening to calls, and then just scoring on my, survey or whatever questionnaire out there. But if I introduce that to, and I say, oh, it's really good. It helps me optimize 90% of, my work. I know that the next steps would be somebody say, well, why the heck am I paying you a full salary if 90% of your work is being optimized? And I think this is where the conversation should be with the higher management of this person shouldn't be doing stupid stuff. They should be doing the complicated analysis, whatever they're doing, but not the stupid stuff that can be automated. That's where it goes. Goes out. And this was my next question. Question or the, situationship is when we have people that are just resistant to change, but they're the ones that are providing the feedback about the tool to the higher management.'cause for me, it happens. All the time we're dealing with end users and these end users cannot adopt. Do not wanna adopt, don't wanna talk to you, don't find the time to talk to you and find every single little reason to trash talk the solution in front of the CEO contact center manager, whatever manager you're dealing with.

Greg: 23:36

so something I learned early on in my sales career was never are selling a person or person. You're selling an account Irina, if I was selling software to you right, and you were my prospect, I would want to make sure I multi-thread as much as possible. I want eight or nine contacts at your company. in to this at multiple different levels, right? I just don't want you to buy it. I want your company to buy it, and that often means that I'm pushing to meet your CEO, pushing to meet your CFO. I'm pushing to meet every VP and director that makes sense, so that when the time comes that we do get that person who is our dissenter or dis de detractor from implementation. We can go back and be like, Hey, like this is an isolated event, right? everything else is going really well. You have this over here happening. But that way we have like the account bought in, not a person bought in to the platform. And I think again, going back to you never done selling, right? Our job, our customer success team's job is to. Create spiderwebs tentacles into the company and make sure more people know about it. Make sure more people are getting value out of it.'cause that's the only way you can overcome that detractor, who feels like their job is being threatened our software.

Irina: 25:03

Yeah. Great answer. I never thought about the spider web as such, but it's a, great one. And we are approaching about time. But before we wrap up, I wanna ask you the question which is instigating my hatred often to vendors. Asking or looking for an answer on the question, why are you guys, you vendors out there always interested in prospects and forgetting about current customers? it annoys the fuck out of me. People are paying you money and at some point you're starting to look and go after the new one, the thing that's not certain and completely forgetting about the people that do pay you and are loyal.

Greg: 25:47

I think that's a huge mistake. first off, I can't speak for other companies'cause our customers are our number one priority. move a prospect meeting if a customer wants to meet. customers are, your lifeblood. And so, a lot of our new customers are a result of the work that our previous customers, have done with us. the case studies, the references,

Irina: 26:12

I think it's a huge mistake to not place your customers as priority.

Greg: 26:16

I think it, For bigger companies, like you just, a customer becomes a number on an Excel spreadsheet for a smaller company that actually like is impacted by a customer leading, like it's a lot easier to make that cultural or make that, identity of customer first as part of your culture. and DNA. Yeah, but I can't speak for other companies to treat their customers like shit. I think it's a mistake.

Irina: 26:44

Thank you for that. Any last words, any last advice? Things that people, prospects, customers, users, should be aware of?

Greg: 26:52

Jocko Willink, Extreme Ownership, one of my favorite books, right? regardless of whether you're on the vendor or the prospect side, just take ownership. Don't paint, don't point fingers. Don't, play the blame game. Take ownership because when you take ownership, it allows you to fix it.

Irina: 27:09

Great Lan. Thank you Greg. Greg, so much for being a part of the podcast and looking forward to all of the feedback. But you're always welcome. And for everyone else, please subscribe for the show, follow along and if you have any questions for Greg, follow him, follow abstract and get in touch. Bye everyone. Till next time.