WFM Unfiltered | Workforce Management Podcast

Keep It Simple, Stupid for Contact Centers | Charlie Adams

• Irina Mateeva • Season 1 • Episode 42

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What happens when you strip the buzzwords out of CX and just focus on the people? In this episode of WFM Unfiltered, Irina sits down with Charlie Adams — customer experience director, author of It’s Just People, and a man who’s seen the contact centre industry from the inside out. From smashing AI myths to confronting uncomfortable truths about management and data, this one’s a no-fluff, all-reality masterclass in how not to screw up your customer experience.

Charlie’s worked across BPOs, startups, and global operations, and brings a refreshingly simple message: humans matter. Whether it’s how AI is being badly implemented, or how contact centres are sitting on a goldmine of underused data, Charlie pulls no punches. You’ll hear how poor scope creep kills projects, why leadership needs more backbone, and how TikTok unexpectedly made him rethink how leaders connect with their teams.

This episode is a must-watch if you’re in CX, workforce planning, contact centre strategy, or just sick of buying shiny tools that don’t deliver. Charlie’s approach is blunt but brilliant — expect uncomfortable truths and unexpected laughs. If you've ever said, “Why isn’t this working?” — this conversation will give you the answers.

Watch now and rewire how you think about transformation, leadership, and the real role of humans in an increasingly tech-first industry.

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Irina:

Happy Tuesday everyone, and welcome to WFM Unfiltered. I'm your host, Irina, and I have such an amazing guest for you today. He's so charismatic and so nice. Unfortunately I cannot pronounce where he's coming from'cause Bulgarian here, so don't judge me too harsh. But, before we start with very random topics today, we're completely unprepared'cause this is how we like to do it. Here in WFM Unfiltered, I would like to introduce you two, Charlie. So Charlie, take us please through your background and tell me how are you doing today?

Charlie:

Hi. Yeah. Morning, afternoon, evening de depends when you're watching this. and yeah, I live just, for the record, I live in Bournemouth. It's not too hard to pronounce. It's on the south coast, in the UK and England. to be fair, I probably couldn't pronounce where you are from. so, it's all relative. Hi, I'm Charlie Adams. I am Director of Customer Experience and Success at Custom Connect. I've recently launched a book, have to get in there early, just to let you know, that my book's out. It's just People Managers toolkit. three weeks ago I launched that, which is fantastic. And yeah, and you'll probably get to hear as we talk a bit more and chat that got quite an eclectic career. If you go back far enough, I've even got a degree in interior design, is completely irrelevant to this call or my job, but that's just bit of my history.

Irina:

You know what I would like to reference in previous episode, of WFM Unfiltered because I was discussing with a guest of mine. Has your interior design, education actually helped you get a job? was it requested anywhere?

Charlie:

It is a great question. Great question. Because yeah, there isn't like a. Normal path or normal degree or qualifications, at least not a standard one. At least not to become, director of customer experience. It wasn't like when I had my interview with the

Irina:

I.

Charlie:

at Custom Connect. You didn't say your interior design degree is really gonna come in helpful. It's not really, it's not really that at all. However, the learnings I've learned through university, the hardships you go through. it teaches you, and certainly the jobs I had while I was at university that teach you how to, you have to really work hard doing, 10 hour shifts and, working in catering, et cetera. They really taught me something. However, my book, I don't wanna bring it straight back to the book already, but my book actually references, a methodology called kiss, stands for keep it Simple, stupid. And the idea is, and I remember learned, I think in my second year at University Study and Design, they teach you this to make sure that when you're designing things, you don't overcomplicate it, you keep it simple. You've gotta think about the end user, whether that's someone walking into a building or whether you're designing software or designing, customer experience journeys. Whatever it is, you've gotta keep it simple, stupid. You've gotta weigh in for the smallest denominator of the person that's gonna be looking at this and using it.'cause you know what it's like you could design. journey or come up with the best idea or best solution and framework about how you want to launch something in a contact center. But then when the users see it, they use it incorrectly or they'll do something wrong on it and they completely blow up in your face. And so I referenced it at the start of the book and throughout the book it's just keep it simple, stupid.

Irina:

That's so interesting. And you know what, I'll give you that because I'm against, especially in our industry and workforce management and in contact centers in general, I'm against it when a job is advertised and a person with. Tons of experience is gonna be disqualified just because they don't have, education, let's say master or bachelor degree in something. I do think that having a diploma of something is put you through that kind of, consistency, learning and putting the work in. But so always working experience. So that's the only thing I continuously want to tell to recruiters. Okay. Don't disqualify experience because of theory. So that's one thing that I'm, very passionate about. But I like your methodology. And please tell me what, in your current job, how does that work? Because I have one sneaky question coming up your way around the KISS methodology.

Charlie:

so yeah, no, it does, are right to nudge me in this direction.'cause it does, help me because, one, as a'cause I. customer experience. I do have to consider designing customer journeys. I have to actually, in CX you have to consider everything from designing user interfaces and how people are gonna use things. designing websites. When I was at Castle's Technology prior, a few years ago, I had to design and revamp our website twice because, the customers were using the website for self-service. of course I had to get involved in that. I had to understand how the customers are gonna use it indefinitely. I. had to keep the, design principles. I've learned in mind when doing that, it has, been a great experience.'cause what it does is lent me to this stage where, I'm now actually find myself, even though I'm not a tech expert at all, I find myself designing AI tools. I know it's mad. I, haven't trained in tech, I don't have a qualification in tech. I haven't ever done a workshop about how to do tech, but. I'm a user. I, use technology. Like you use technology so that therefore there's no reason why I can't decide or understand what's good and what's bad, what works, what doesn't work. I, and I just follow the same principle about when you are coming up with a concept, then you're working through the ideas, then you're understanding roadmap. So a plan and a strategy for down all the things you have to do and creating a timeline. And so in a very short space of time, To cut a very long story short, a few months ago we came up with this idea that what we wanted for custom connect a way of uniting our quality teams and a way of uniting the team managers so we could look at quality, we could unite them in coaching, and hopefully gain loads of insights. because again, something pretty maybe come to talk about in a minute. Don't wanna waffle too much, but the thing that people miss sometimes about a contact center is that it's just this gold mine of data and insights. So you have to understand how to mine the data and the value it can bring. So once we create the concept, we didn't even create, we started off creating the problem that we had, that we needed to fill in terms of needing to connect people and needing to, get better insights from our quality and, assurance. realized what we needed was, that could. do speech analytics that can transcribe a hundred percent of our calls. It can give us all the data and insights that we need, as well as, the coaching, methodology that we needed to align our coaches and team leaders.'cause how do we get, how do you get team leaders over and Sarah and Aham to then and train and follow the same methodology as team leaders down in South Africa or across the Netherlands or any of our sites we have. It's just really hard to coordinate and myself as. Director of customer, I'm like, am I gonna do this? So we actually are now in the process of creating and developing, an AI tool, which is bonkers because not an AI expert. I've learned about it over the years because I've had to, you can't, avoid it. But that's where we are.

Irina:

I think we live in pretty interesting time where we have so much more opportunity to learn and to try new stuff, and it's great. It's great that you're not stuck in a box being like, okay, I can only do this thing because this is what I have done for the past five years. So my natural career progression will be maybe doing that thing, but. In a different company, but I wanna, bring you back to that tip because it's important for me to understand it from vendor perspective, prospect perspective. And even when we're applying for jobs, I know that once you are in a job and you're, let's say you're a planner or a team lead, working with the senior stakeholder. You should explain it. Very simple for everyone to understand it. Short, simple, and on the point. However, what I have noticed is that for some prospects, the more difficult you explain the tool, like the more, data you or details you put in the conversation, the more sophisticated they think the tool is. And it might not necessarily be the case, but it's the sales talk. Is that case methodology working for the salesy part or not?

Charlie:

Okay. Is that a really polite way to say that? Some people use a lot of smoke and mirrors to try and say something's better than it really is?

Irina:

A lot of

Charlie:

because,

Irina:

shit. I'm not into the, but.

Charlie:

because yeah. I, completely agree that you're right. Some. yeah, some tools do try and sell the earth and behind the scenes it's just people typing very quickly and trying to together spreadsheets to make it all work. I completely get that, and you are right. That is, where yes, sales can get carried away. or not even just the sales team, everything get carried away and say, Hey, we've got this amazing tool and this is how it works. And not only, I'm not even talking about tools externally, even when you just try and pitch it internally and say, Hey team, we're gonna launch this new tool to help us all. What they don't realize is that there's a team like yourself sitting in the background just working on spreadsheets, trying to it all together to make it look nice on the user interface. I can't even remember what question you're asking, but Yeah, I completely agree is, it is a huge issue. and funnily enough, you have one of the tasks I was doing just before this, I'm trying to get rid of the jargon, trying to get rid of. Because what happens is when you come up with a concept, you start developing and creating a tool, you end up with scope creep. end up saying, oh, why didn't it do this? And let's add this to it, and why can't it do this? And let's make sure it does this and or before you know it, because everyone wants to say every, when you're having a leadership meeting, everyone has an idea of something they want to add to this new tool you are creating. end up with this long list of all the things that everyone wishes or hopes it will do. and the reality is you have to think about the minimal viable product. That's all it's really about. You have to understand that you take the noise, you make sure that as a leadership team, you bring it back to the well simplicity as you said, which is the MVP, and you say, right guys, it's great with these ideas. We'll stick'em on the roadmap. We'll do'em in the future. If you don't have a strong leadership team as the CX leader or whoever, whichever, whatever leadership or project role you have, if you don't control it, if you let it get outta hand, if you let the list get outta hand, if you don't get it straight back to the MVP of what you've gotta create, then yeah, that's then go to the sales team or the company and say, Hey, we've got this cool product, they'll start talking about. The end product. So the product you might have in five years time or, your wish list, what they won't talk about is the MVP, what you are really gonna create. So yeah, that's in my view, I'm not, again, I'm no but my view from, working with a lot of sales teams and a lot of design teams and website teams over the years in various companies, yeah. Bring it straight back to reality.

Irina:

Okay. You really can't deliver everything., absolutely not. But tell me, we, we discussed, the contact center specifically being like a goldmine of data. However, very small percentage of that data is being used. Even smaller percentage of data is being understood by people. So in your opinion, like what is the tip? what do we do with that data? Do we need it even, or do we explore it? what's your experience with this?

Charlie:

Do we need it? I guess the answer to that question is pretty different for every company because I, I believe at least most of the data is needed, right, it's how you use the data and how you analyze it is important. for instance, some SMEs, some smaller companies, especially in the past, before you have, machine learning or AI to help go through the data for you. have to invest in having a team of people to sit and look through the data and insights team,

Irina:

Yeah.

Charlie:

might not have the money to invest in that insights. So for a company of that size is maybe they don't look at all the data. It might even be the customer service manager's role who's managing a contact center to look at the data themselves and get through it all. So yeah, in that instance, yes, it's a gold mine of data, but the magic is knowing what three data points to look at. you don't, look at every single KPI. You have to look at the KPI that matters. And then that's where it becomes really tricky because if you ask the client, they'll tell you what KPIs matter to them. If you ask the business, it'll tell you what KPIs matter to them. If you speak to, your agents, they'll say what? KPIs? KPIs matter to them. You speak to wfm, they'll give you even more that you have to worry about. for instance, you guys might be rushing around telling everyone to get out of rap and why are you spending so long in hold? that's doesn't really matter for the company, it doesn't matter why we've been looking at that data or caring about that data. It changes. Changes a lot. I think the beauty of it though is that you don't need a team these days. can just, you don't even have to invest that much. You can actually just use most, tools that people are using at the moment already have some sort of machine learning or AI or, insights built into it. So a really simple level, you can just crunch the numbers, you can get some of the insights out, and it'll just save you time. So as a customer service manager, if it is your job to look at the data, you don't have to spend hours every week. You just spend half an hour Monday morning, crunch the data from last week, it'll tell you the key points you need to remember, and then you carry on with your life. A huge company like Custom Connect where we are now and we've got contact centers around the world, we do obviously have a few more people looking at the insights. We are using AI to crunch the insights and show us the data. Of course we are, we have to. but then, yeah, we've got people to then look at what that's telling us to make sure it's actually actionable, because otherwise it's just numbers. I.

Irina:

You know what? I wanna stop you here because, one thing that I have noticed is, ex colleague of mine used to say the data is never wrong. It's what data you're using. And, we are often in a situation where. We need to increase service level. We need to reduce repeat costs. We need to, whatever kind of data you're interesting in. And then what people start saying is tweaking it. So they just add some stuff from the metrics, added additional ones, and the data starts looking very differently. and if you want to increase your personal performance. Again, it's very easy for this to be tweaked in a way where it's more appealing for different people. So do you think with AI this is gonna become a little bit more difficult for people to start faking results? You know what, I'm gonna put you on the spot here because as somebody who. Has come from A BPO. I know that even for customers sometimes, if they're unhappy for your results, someone might tell you, oh, what if remove this bit from the data? The stats change, so is it that gonna be more difficult with ai?

Charlie:

Yeah, you are. And yeah, you're spot on. it's a challenge because it's a challenge not only, for an individual to want to use the data for their advantage to make sure they look great. And it's a challenge for campaigns. It's a challenge for when you're speaking to clients to, because you don't want to, don't necessarily want to show a client the data. And it's a balancing act on one hand you've got to be open and honest and you've got to the data as it is. The other hand, as you said, you can choose how you show the data. Same data, you just choose how you show the data and what bits you wanna highlight compared to what bits you don't wanna highlight, which is very clever. And. And I to answer your question, I hope AI, takes away any need to fudge or lie or any need for dishonesty, because it's important that you have to display the data in the right way. You can't just. instance, the reason we do this as well is there's so much data. If we were just to give it all to every single client or everyone was just to look at their data, it would be pointless. So you have to have some sort of methodology for picking out the highlights and the lowlights and understanding what action needs to be taken, what's gone what hasn't gone well, what trends can you see? What do you need to action that will be for long term success. you need to get all this out of it. So there has to be some sort of methodology. But this is where, as you said, AI might take some of the human elements out. But I don't, but you can't get rid of all the human element'cause data and facts are important. Of course they are. They have to be important. But nothing takes away, from that gut feeling that you have, the experience you have, it's always pointless. Me talking about the fact that I've got, 20 audits years experience, if I'm just gonna let AI tell me what data I need to look at and don't need to look at, I, I need to be able to then hold the AI accountable and I need to be able to say. that's great. Or no, that's not good. And I don't have to just take on face value and use what is telling me you have to use.'cause businesses are people in the end. So yes, you have to trust the data to a certain extent and you have to work on facts. Course you do. But humans behind the facts. You've gotta use a bit of your gut as well.

Irina:

You know what? I actually tried to entrap you with this question for the so reason, like you mentioned it. We traditionally used to have insights team, or in many companies they were called bas, right? The business analysts, we weren't analyzing, which were just creating reports based on what. Their stakeholder wants to see, right? So if the stakeholder says, get rid of this, and then show me the report. This is what was happening. Now the AI might be much faster providing you the data, but somebody needs to request that data so that human that's requested can still request the same thing from the ai. Okay, just show me those stats or whatever, by just removing some bits here and there. So whilst I'm a huge advocate for automation, AI, tech, and whatever, I'm still saying the human elements like. Guys, we can't get rid of ourselves like, or we extinct. That's it. Those are the options here or not, right?

Charlie:

Exactly. But we can't let our AI take over completely. Otherwise it stops being customer service. It stops. Yeah. It, takes all the emotion out of it.

Irina:

So tell me how, what have you seen in the BPO industry? Is it something that's currently starting to gain more momentum? The AI and the tech, it's difficult because you're working with so many different customers and also sometimes depends, depending on the price and the cost. You might be deploying a solution for a CER certain customer that you're not necessarily able to deploy for a different one. So how are things looking on your end at the moment?

Charlie:

the challenge. So certainly the stats, when you look at the market, AI and the use of just ai, but technology, more across BPOs globally is increasing, still not everywhere. still quite a low adoption for ai, probably for all those exact same challenge you said, because the biggest challenge that we have at the moment, Is getting access to data in the right way to access for integration with technology. Because, say we've got 40 or 45 different clients, big and small, and that means all of a sudden you've got all those clients that you have to, then the same conversation that you would have with the technology provider yourself as A BPO. You then have to somehow link up and have the same conversation with those clients and get agreement about how you can share data. And then there's issues with, protections and security and safety of data to make sure it isn't shared with any other third parties, et cetera. And so finding the right solution that integrates in the right way that can then give you value, not just for one campaign, but give you value across, all the campaigns almost impossible because you've got to remember that when companies. Use, outsources, they don't necessarily use'em because they don't have a contact center solution. They'll use it because they're either growing or they have a particular part of the contact center. They'll be really well handled, And so that means they've already got their own solution in-house. They're probably already using their own ai, they're using their own bots, they're using their own QA system, everything, we, wish that we could control centrally, we simply can't. So the reality is we just have to. Get used to that. We just have to understand that we can't control everything, but then that doesn't matter. what we do have to do is still basically focus on what we can control. We have to make sure we're very selective and we, when we are choosing technology, we don't choose it because it's really bright and shiny and the salesman was great you love the tool because it doesn't matter how much you love the tool. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. yeah, it's, a challenge I guess. I'm not even sure if I answered the question, but

Irina:

Yeah.

Charlie:

technology is really, a challenge.

Irina:

Okay, let's bring you back to the book, because this is how we started chatting on LinkedIn because, I just found something that, okay, it sparks a lot of interest. It's a hot topic, but, the title is, it's All People,

Charlie:

It is just people, a manager's toolkit? Yes.

Irina:

right? So give me some tips. Gimme some tips, talking about in the book.

Charlie:

so yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you the full story. yeah, turns out I'm a 40 something toker. so a few years ago I created a TikTok channel at Leadership with Charlie. Please look it up. if you wanna watch a guy in his mid forties talking on camera, and did it too. I did it'cause it was a challenge for my son because that's what children do. And I started using it to support managers. So I started to, do tips. So I did my, Charlie's top tips on management, and I'd talk about everything from recruitment right through to dismissal and performance management and everything else. And then after a few years, I thought, actually got, a hundred or so tips here, that in my view at least, are great tips that I wish someone could just put in one place. So I did, I started to think about these ideas. I started to write'em down. and then would you know it a few years later, I've now created a book. It's just people, a manager's toolkit. So the premise of the book is that the first chapter called Hiring, which is obviously about hiring. and then it follows the whole journey through right through to the last chapter, which is called Firing, is the nicest part, but it has to, I have to be real in the book and cover that off as well. And so the idea is that you can read it from front to back if you wanted to, or. You could just say, oh, I want to turn to the page under the chapter called team building and look at team building. Or I want to look at engagement. You look at engagement or indeed if you do find yourself, I might need to let this person go. You can turn to the chapter on firing and actually read about how to successfully, and fairly, let someone go.

Irina:

I don't know what to say. First of all, those are topics that I really wish we can start talking a little bit more openly. So once again, I'm super impressed by you and that you put in the work to create and publish a book. yeah. Hiring and firing. Wow. those are one of the hot ones, but, by the end of the episode, I'm gonna ask you again to, just mention your TikTok and your book so everyone can find it. But it. It is kind of tips and advice and a manual wrapped as a book so everyone can basically decide, okay, what's a hot topic for me personally right now, so I can just open it on this and just use your advice on this topic.

Charlie:

that's exactly why I did it because I didn't do it just to stroke my own ego. But a lot of that is to, make me feel good as well. But I did it because I couldn't find, I. The same book anyway. So I've got various management books, and leadership books, they all seem to go into too much depth. or you get one management book and it tells you the five steps to management. Then you get another man management book and it's the three steps of leadership. Then another one is like the seven steps, and they're all different models. So when I was a manager, I found it really hard to understand when I, when you're in the moment and you've suddenly got to manage people or something happens. gonna remember. Oh yeah, that was the fourth step of this book I read two years ago, not the third step of the other book I read a few years ago. So I was like, let's cut out all the crap. Let's just keep it simple. keep it simple, stupid. Obviously kiss methodology from design. and let's just break it down to really simple chapters. so I don't really follow any, management methodologies. Obviously I hinted a few through it. I try and get out buzzwords. I try and. Not make, it look too complicated because I want it to be a book that a manager Yeah. Can just pick up on the fly. They can just get home one day they can decide I want to read about how to onboard someone.'cause the second chapter, no. Yeah. Second chapter's onboarding. and then the manager can just do that. And throughout the book, I've actually tried to keep the same feel. So I've made it, I actually started making it too chatty. So when I started writing the book, I wrote it as if I was speaking. And then I, got a really good friend, called Mark from Gemini and consultancy, and he's much better at English than I am. He's actually studied English, whereas I just got a GCSE in English. So he read it through and he was like, you probably need to make this a bit more businessy. and he actually talked me about correct grammar. So I went through it and made it more businessy, but then I made sure in each section I've put my top tips. So you'll be reading it. It'll tell you a methodology or whatever I choose to write, and then it'll say, my top tip is, and it'll hopefully give you a real example just to, to keep it real so it hopefully feels like this. If, you were to ask me about onboarding, the way I speak now is hopefully how the book appears, is my point. I.

Irina:

I love that. And you know what I, I find you a fascinating guest and amazing one because I keep on telling people in the industry that sky's your limit. And writing a book is something that probably none of us would actually believe. It's possible. We somehow, I. Think about writing a book like, oh, you need to be just an author. this is what you do for a living. Or you are retired, CEO of whatever company, and you're just speaking about the brand. no, If you think about it, you can do it. And I find you such a great example that this is a passion of yours and then you're trying to help and support by just putting all of your experience into tips and tricks for all of us here. Oh, thank you so much.

Charlie:

you're welcome. I've, got to, I've gotta say though, the end, on the point you made is the reason. The reason I do this stuff, like TikTok and Yeah, other obviously haven't just done work stuff, is because a really powerful, phrase that I heard a few years ago, which is the power of yet. basically, rather than say I'm not an author, you simply add the word yet at the end. So I'm not an author yet. So for instance, I'm running an ultra marathon in October. I've never run an ultra marathon before, but I'm not an ultra marathon runner yet. But I will be. I wasn't a TikTokker but if you say I'm not TikTokker yet, it gives you opportunity and unless someone tells you can't do it, why? Why don't you just go and write a book? No one's stopping you.

Irina:

should, you believe that because I had many people in my life telling me I can't do it. I couldn't open a consulting company. I would have failed within a month. I wouldn't have been, consultant for a external company because it's too much and I'm gonna fail immediately. But hey, off. Here I am.

Charlie:

You're smashing.

Irina:

So I really that you are bringing that positivity and that message about, you know what, just do it, start doing it. If you're dreaming about it, there isn't a showstopper other than maybe time, but,

Charlie:

Everyone's, everyone has the same amount of time. It's just how you choose to use it, so you can't use time as an excuse.

Irina:

That's true. So thank you so much for this conversation. We are wrapping it up. Give me a final tip for everyone that is watching right now in whatever direction, what makes a great manager?

Charlie:

A great manager is someone that. Leads with courage. So one of the hardest things about being a manager is having the courage to step up and take charge, handle difficult conversations, handle conflicts within your team. but if you shy away from it, you're not gonna do anyone any favors. So just be the manager and be the leader that your team wish they had. Be that person that can take control, that can lead them from the front, lead them through any issues, any challenges, and it all takes courage. So yeah, learn. Learn how to be courageous or learn how to show courage.

Irina:

that's a great one actually. Fantastic one, and thank you so much for joining me again. Name of the book, where can people find it? And the TikTok.

Charlie:

So the book is called, it's Just People, a Manager's toolkit. if you Google it, if you Google, it's just People. Charlie Adams, it'll come up. It's on Amazon. So go on Amazon. You can find the book. If you've got Kindle Unlimit, you can even read the book for free. it's available on paperback and hardback. please go and take a look. you can find me on LinkedIn if you search Charlie Adams, customer experience, I'm sure, I think I'm probably one of the few people that come up if you search that. and if you really wanna watch me on TikTok at leadership with Charlie.

Irina:

And you know what guys? let's support one of our own. So if you want for some business content and something to help you be better in your job, just let's support one of our own. let's go buy the book. Go find the TikTok. And you know what, on that note, if you're, looking for a BPO where do people go?

Charlie:

custom connect. yeah, custom connect. We've got offices throughout Europe and South Africa, south America, and of course I'm the Director of Customer Experience, of course. It's an awesome place.

Irina:

So if you go there, just say that Charlie to help you.

Charlie:

name, drop me.

Irina:

Yes, name, drop him. Thank you so much everyone, and we'll see you next Tuesday.

Charlie:

Cheers.

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