WFM Unfiltered | Workforce Management Podcast

Why WFM Hiring is Failing Talented People

• Irina Mateeva • Season 1 • Episode 38

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om both sides of the table — as someone who’s hired for WFM roles and as someone who’s had to fight for credibility without formal credentials. He and Irina debate whether certificates really prove capability, why vendors may be part of the problem, and how the obsession with system knowledge is holding back operational growth.

Expect frustration, a few uncomfortable truths, and a whole lot of clarity. Whether you’re hiring for WFM, trying to land your next role, or just wondering why your job posts keep attracting the wrong people — this episode is for you.

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Irina:

Welcome to WFM Unfiltered. I'm your host, Irina, and I'm having someone joining the show again because you know what? Exactly like the host, he has a very big mouth and he's not afraid to use it. So before I give him the word to reintroduce himself. I will quickly make, two announcements. So if you enjoy the show, if you're a WFM, or if you wanna support the show, please take two seconds to subscribe, write the rating or a review. And if you're in a need of the WFM support, just go to write wfm.com and see if we can maybe work together and do some magic. But before we talk about that highly uncomfortable topic, I would say. Ilija, how are you doing? We're staying local today on the balcony. So what better to do on a Friday evening, guys? It's seven my time. 10 past seven on a Friday. And for you it's 10 past six.

Ilija:

six. Yeah, 10

Irina:

The dedication?

Ilija:

we're so far

Irina:

Yes.

Ilija:

It's like

Irina:

To drive.

Ilija:

yeah. Like hour and a half drive, so

Irina:

far away. Far away. I think I can wave to you probably from my window and see you, but how are you doing? Tell me what's going on?

Ilija:

doing great. Doing great. unlike the last time, now I have a new role and a couple of certificates behind me because they're, yeah. They're so important. first about my

Irina:

Yes.

Ilija:

let me take a pace. I am a manager of professional and managed services. For those who don't know or understand, that manager of. Manage and professional services. I'm working in A BPO, that is actually BPO, so not a call center, not an agent provider. we're providing managed and professional services around workforce management. There are tools and consulting on everything else in the call center. Yeah. fancy new role. Fancy new, certificates. Yeah, certificates. So now I'm more qualified to do my job that I was actually doing before

Irina:

Actually, part of our conversation is about certification. So let me start with you because, let me think. I'm not fancy enough. I don't think I have any certificate, so I guess I am sh*t at my job.

Ilija:

that's not good. That's not good. That's really not good. you have to have a certificate so you can prove that you understand the tool, if you're working in workforce management, Right. it's a requirement for whatever reason when, job post is created, for you to have a certificate, that proves the knowledge in the tool otherwise.

Irina:

let's start on a serious note, because often what is actually happening is companies or recruiters are publishing the job app, and there is a big part in which in a lot of companies, they do require those certification, right? Which is where my whole issue kicks in because first of all. This is a rather new concept. Second of all, I have seen some generic WFM certifications and they're absolute shit. And third, all this is a way of companies to generate money, right? You need to pay to obtain that certification, so you can already understand that there is quite a big interest for this, right? On the other hand, a lot of companies. Actually do not have any WFM tools, but they don't require you to have an Excel certification. You just can say, yeah, I know my way around Excel, and then you're magically hired. So what, kind of, value do we hold in those certificates and how, can we actually prove to companies that experience it's much better than a piece of paper that I can create here within five minutes and start setting around.

Ilija:

that's a fair question. So I don't hold any values. In those certificates because, there, there is nothing to hold value to. I don't understand why they are provided. they should be naturally provided for you completing a training. That is not you doing your job, it's you learning something. when it comes to workforce management tools, it's really to the provider that's providing the tool. To make it easily, navigatable, I would say, and not have these courses of 70 hours. Learning how to navigate to a system and then be certified in it because it doesn't know you workforce management. It just that you've went through a training or a course for a specific workforce management tool.

Irina:

first thought actually on this. Maybe I do understand vendors because especially if you are a partner, a system integrator, they do want to know that you have certain experience that then they can guarantee. but on the other hand, to be honest, if you just learn how to click and push some buttons in the toe, but you cannot, you are not a WFM person. You cannot apply the process to the tool. Does it really bring you that much? Is it gonna be better impression of the vendor that I just learned the sequence of buttons that I need to push? what do you think about that?

Ilija:

We are, we're navigating into a dangerous territory, our favorite mine. And yours. I think that the certificates are mainly for companies to do marketing around

Irina:

Okay.

Ilija:

not to prove that somebody is skilled or understands what they're doing, because in none of the conversations that I've had with clients or customers or BPOs or. Vendors. Nobody asks me, are you certified in this? Or do you understand how this is working? We're just having a plain conversation of needs then how we're gonna fill those needs. So I really think that these maybe, in the past, let's take it. From the beginning, there is no kind of structured way of learning workforce management or trainings that are gonna set you

Irina:

Yeah.

Ilija:

So what these companies that are vendors to software solutions for workforce management can really do maybe instead of focusing on how you push this button and it does a thing, tell you why this thing is done why in their system is better.

Irina:

Oh, that's an interesting spin. Okay. I like that because one of my biggest issues with, solution consultants and as a user and as a independent consultant, I'm always. Having a big issue. If I spot the solution consultant that knows the tool and doesn't know WFM, because then I'm like, how are you going to give me approach? How are you gonna help me solve my challenge that I have outside of a tool? When you don't understand it, when you don't relate it, and I think it's a fair question that we don't address enough and do, A bit, a little bit of a further spin. That's also the issue that they have with a lot of, support, teams in WFM tools because they know even less of the solution. They're not WFM people, they're just support people. That usually takes you weeks to explain them what your actual issues. So the quality seems to be like me.

Ilija:

Hands-on. Hands-on. Working with some of those teams, one or another side. that's really, true and I don't know if it's on purpose. Or if it's just not paying or not having people exposed enough to what the solution is. And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about technical things, like we're not talking about coding or APIs or blah, blah, blah. We're talking about a simple. As a user, how this tool is functioning. I don't know why companies provide customer support that is created through routing tickets instead of a solution.

Irina:

okay. Then let's take a step back and just reroute to the certification because I just had a sudden thought the reason why certificates are also. to attract people is because people want to know that they have achieved something from, from psychological perspective. They wanna know that they are differentiated by others, that not everyone is having that. So I think it's very attractive to say, okay, if you.

Ilija:

Huh.

Irina:

Finalize this course or this thing. You get certificate and it's fair, right? It's fair if you have put some efforts, you need to get some sort of reward. The question is, can we, and how do we secure a good enough, structure and knowledge coming out of those certifications? So you are actually, if you're in the. Competition for a job, you are the more skilled person, not because of the paper, but because you know something more than a person that work with that tool or in that area, but does not have certification, doesn't have,

Ilija:

See that's the difference between you and me Now. You don't have a certificate? I have a

Irina:

oh, shut that.

Ilija:

Yeah. Yeah.

Irina:

You get up.

Ilija:

I'm gonna say the same thing again. Like these certifications and trainings need to have something workforce management logically explained. Why in the tool itself and in the training itself. and I'm saying this only and only because. I was working in an ex company and I wasn't, that there was no requirement for me to be certified in that company, in, in their tool. and the requirement became a requirement only when I decided to branch off and not work in that X company. Even that is a backwards logic to me, because you can use those certificates and those trainings to train your customer support.

Irina:

Yeah, that, yeah, I agree with you. But then, as a current manager, and this is one thing that I am curious about, I am a hiring manager. I have been a hiring manager for many, years before I became consultant, and I think majority of the people that I have hired. Did, first of all, did not have certification. That's a given, right? Because back at the time, that thing wasn't even existing, but they didn't even have an experience. What they did have is a crazy good potential. The analytical thinking, the communication, and I knew that if we invest in these people, they can grow so much that I would probably work better with them than somebody who is stuck in the ways to know cer certain things. And that's why I'm a bit struggling understanding why can't we pass that initial step, which is the recruiter that sometimes are very, hang on the you need to have a certificate and now let's jump on your favorite topic, which is a university degree, and how important that.

Ilija:

Oh, come on, I've been involved in like hiring processes and I've never requested for a person to have a certificate or a degree. I want logical thinking, I want somebody that's gonna approach things with an open mind. I don't want somebody that's gonna be stuck in the ways that I tell him to see things. And knowing how to push a button in a software solution doesn't mean anything to me.

Irina:

Yeah. Not to mention that, are being. Done, the interface changes, maybe the button holds on a different, spotting the tool so your knowledge can quickly get outdated. But, for everyone that is currently confused, why are we, talking so much about it? I have just mentioned prior the recording that I have sometimes. A couple of times been reached out by recruiters, and at the moment that they hear that I don't have a generic WFM certification, it's no. It's

Ilija:

No,

Irina:

So what is it that you think, I don't know, even though my entire background in this space, we just want certificate. What for? And probably those certificates, to be honest, are created by people with less experience than me. Not to say that everyone is like that. Let's, not do that. There, there is probably very, good programs out there. I have personally not, invested into being part of them. But I'm curious, let's say everyone who is listening to that tell us are they helpful? What does they give you? Is there anyone that you would recommend that it's actually working? And on the other hand, let's talk back to the degrees. To

Ilija:

the college

Irina:

the college degrees, especially, what I have seen in Western Europe. Some companies are very hung on uni to have a degree. luckily I'm gonna say this one now, I have a marketing degree and zero times zero. It had helped me with anything workforce related, but I was tick a box. And this is the annoying part that. Apparently it separates you from other people. Maybe it does make you seem smarter. I don't know.

Ilija:

It

Irina:

thing

Ilija:

It does.

Irina:

I, this is the thing, even as a manager, I disagree. So let me tell you, I have to choose between two people. There

Ilija:

Okay.

Irina:

is the, same age. One has zero practical experience, but a degree in something completely unrelated. The other one has the X amount of years practical experience. I don't understand why the guy or the girl with the practical experience would be disqualified, so I can just be presented with someone with the music degree or something that does not correspond to workforce management.

Ilija:

See, as the difference with me having a certificate in you, not now, we're at the difference. You having a degree and me not.

Irina:

I just let, hold on. Let me stop you here. You wouldn't even make it to show your certificate.

Ilija:

Because I don't have a college degree. See, it's, not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair. So that means like my certificate in the solution makes me a better workforce manager or your degree in X thing makes you a better workforce manager. really doesn't, it really doesn't matter. your degree at marketing makes you great at marketing amongst other things. And my certificate at a software solution makes me great at knowing click a button.

Irina:

May this help.

Ilija:

Yeah. Yeah. It, really helps. I, agree.

Irina:

How the heck, what do we do? Because this starts to really annoy me in recruitment process. I have also spent a lot of time with people that are truly amazing, skilled. People with great potential and they are just stuck in a first interview with a recruiter and they're like not being able to, pass it because you see, they just can't show whatever requirement A or B is.

Ilija:

depends on the role that you're being hired for. I really think that entry level roles shouldn't require anything. I. Really, anything, not let alone a certificate in a specific tool. if you go into a management role, then maybe experience or a certificate would be nice. I've seen a lot of companies in our realm of BPOs and you name it, do testing and require work. I've been into a couple of loops, of an. Favorite company of mine favorite, where I did free work, in an interview

Irina:

Yep.

Ilija:

and then I saw my work implemented in their environment and I said, never again. so

Irina:

oh.

Ilija:

that's, that there's that trend as well. here is in Excel then you complete the task and. You know how it is afterwards.

Irina:

Okay. actually we had a topic that is completely unrelated to that, but we've been just nagging before the recording and we decided randomly to do an episode for WFM on. That's one thing that I've been thinking for the past. Probably good six months. That starts to really, rub me the wrong way. And to anyone who is interested in becoming a solution consultant, I'm going to give you a little bit of the, info from the kitchen. So usually the process can be quite heavy un unless you know someone on the inside. So first of course you go interview with, let's say, a recruiter. Then you go to an interview with, let's say a consultant and the director of whatever it is. And usually third step is, a case. That you need to prepare for a presentation or something, and they give you like that very good case of this is going wrong and this is going wrong. So you need to, take that case away, work it out, and present it to couple of people, to people, five people, the whole team or whatever. And it starts to freaking rub me the wrong way because this is the definition of performing, free work because you are giving solutions that currently the company might be struggling to get. You are presenting that solutions and honestly. Most of the time people don't even have the decency to come back with the feedback saying, you know what? We chose X, we chose Y, or We like this. We didn't like that. So I know that this is existing process throughout many industries, including art. You are supposed to draw something and present it, but it's like, why the heck do we say that this is normal? And I think as an industry we should say. Ask me, let's discuss it. And if you don't like my answer, that's fine, but requiring to create a presentation, lose your time, invest and your brain and your potentially unique selling point in your knowledge, and then be taken away. It's like a no So do we have to be a little bit more vocal, give more shit to vendors or companies?

Ilija:

A hundred percent. Yes. of all, the market for, workforce, like natural workforce is not set by companies or vendors or It's by the workers that are searching for that job. So if, a hundred of us apply. You are supposed to entertain a couple because you select the

Irina:

Yeah.

Ilija:

imagine if you, let's say there are three candidates. You give all three of them a different task, that's conclude to a whole project for your company for free.

Irina:

annoying. would be recruiting all the freaking time because then you just get your job being done.

Ilija:

So imagine all of these companies now that are all around the year searching for a workforce manager for a capacity planner, for a scheduler, and for. And those job posts are sitting there and are sitting there and are sitting there nobody gets hired.

Irina:

And in the end, isn't that the, reason why we have trials, right? You believe based.

Ilija:

Yeah. you give me a specific time, a timeframe, like that's the point of, and a agreement or a contract giving. A person that you hire, a one month period or three months period trial to see if they're gonna fit in the environment first, and then the role that is given.

Irina:

I, just had a flashback a couple of years ago. I, was applying for a job and it was, a senior position, but,

Ilija:

Did they request from you to create a capacity plan for them?

Irina:

no. It was actually worse. It had, I think, five steps. So it was one of these lengthy interviews, so I had to go being interviewed by literally every single person and team in that company. Then there was a round of, dose tests that are. First of all, there are four times. So every question was I think 30 seconds. And then it was so heavy, like there was different sections. So it was couple of hours. Then there was the case. Then you, this is, what you have to present. You go away, you make the PowerPoint, and then you, You work across the PowerPoint and they're asking you questions and after that you have another interview, which was the final step with the whoever. And then they decide. And I was thinking, you know what? First of all, if you're looking for job, regardless if you don't have a job, if you do have, it's stressful, there are reasons why you're looking for a job, right?

Ilija:

Yep.

Irina:

you are already applying, probably back and forth and looking around there.

Ilija:

Yep.

Irina:

if you have to go through such process for every single company that you're applying for, you wouldn't even have the time in the day to do that. So I just don't think it's fair. I think we should start rating the hiring process in companies and start socializing from there because honestly, we, have to do better than that.

Ilija:

Oh yeah, definitely.

Irina:

Any tips, any what? What can we do about it?

Ilija:

I, love the input that you gave, for having a conversation and if the right questions are asked on an interview, you would know if a person's suitable or not. it's really that simple. It's really that simple. You don't have to go through, create me this in Excel and then this presentation and then come present it as in a quarterly meeting. we are not doing a quarterly meeting and I don't know how your organization functions and I don't know what you want me to say.'cause at the end of the day, I'm presenting this as I feel comfortable and not suited to your organization.

Irina:

You know what, I'm thinking about it, now, and the best person that I have ever hired, first of all, I was asking him difficult questions and stuff. It was very apparent. He has knowledge, but the reason I hired him actually, was that on the interview, he dared to challenge me directly.

Ilija:

Oh.

Irina:

So I was asking him one of, I, I like difficult questions. So I was asking him something about, how would you react if I give you a feedback on the back of something that was shared with me as your manager, whatever. And he turned around and said, why would you give me feedback before, check with me what actually happened. And I actually love? Is bold enough to challenge me because my work as a manager is not to slap you down and to show my power, but is to do the best job for my people so they can do the best job. So this was the moment when I knew I'm gonna hire this guy. So it had nothing to do with, his skills in workforce management or whatever. And to be honest. Currently, if you don't have a knowledge, I would much rather know that you know where to get for answers and how to get them rather than, oh, I know what if formula and how it works in Excel. So show me and you're hired.

Ilija:

Yep. Definitely, And, all of this can be tied to our past conversation. and there are a lot of companies that are gonna be searching for people that are gonna be saying yes and not disobeying them. which is funny to me because the nature of the role is not to be obedient.

Irina:

you think the nature of the role is then?

Ilija:

To provide a realistic picture of what's happening, which a lot of companies don't like.

Irina:

You know what? That's another thing for everyone that, wants to become a independent consultant. I would say not even independent work as a consultant. a fun thing. How many companies want external expertise just to tell them that they are right? And at

Ilija:

Yeah.

Irina:

when you provide them with a n report resolution or to show them what's not working, not only they don't trust you anymore because you're saying something different.

Ilija:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Irina:

absolutely not appreciate your contribution and they probably would never work with you again.

Ilija:

yep.

Irina:

So interesting that you're saying that the nature of the job is not to be obedient because that's what a lot of companies in fact do require. Okay. Okay.

Ilija:

And I've had cases like this, even when consulting.

Irina:

Mm-hmm.

Ilija:

I've had cases in my team when they were consulting, to client, just ask you to fix the system to match their numbers.

Irina:

Oh Yeah. that's my favorite. Yeah.

Ilija:

Like, why would you wanna do that? But nonetheless, because we don't look, we, cannot, I cannot argue against that because probably I don't have a degree,

Irina:

Wow. There you go. There you go. Some food for thought for the both of us. On Friday I'll get some certificates. You go get yourself some degree, but, actually the purpose of this conversation, which we're gonna leave for, third episode was to speak about BPOs and what's, happening. Not only our side of the world, but with PPOs in general. But I think this one, I would make it even a little bit more vocal. Maybe we can create some webinar or even start creating some community that we are rating the interview process so people are prepared and they know what and how much time they have to invest. waste or maybe companies should start paying attention Yeah. to conduct those, interview processes.

Ilija:

It's funny how we started talking about BPOs or the idea of BPOs and outsourcing and the changes in the world, and we ended up to certificates and degrees. yeah.

Irina:

It is. It's how it is. That's why I am saying everyone who is ever scared to join WFM on Filter, I'm always saying it's not a freaking interview. It's a friendly conversation where

Ilija:

Oh yeah.

Irina:

start. Probably is not gonna be where we actually

Ilija:

Oh yeah.

Irina:

where we end. But thank you so much for spending your Friday evening with me.

Ilija:

Oh, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Definitely.

Irina:

likewise, despite the shit you've been given me for my lack of qualifications. But, you'll be forgiven. But stay tuned, because this guy is very good. He is amazing. And I'll reach out to you for, a webinar on the topic.

Ilija:

Ooh.

Irina:

let's start

Ilija:

Ooh.

Irina:

content out there about the recruiting process. the inside, not from recruiter perspective. Thanks for joining me today

Ilija:

My pleasure. My pleasure.

Speaker:

Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host Eva, founder of Wright WFM, where we believe that every business and its people are unique and deserve the right solution to their challenges. If you need. Support with workforce management. We are just a message away. Get in touch at the arena@ridewfm.com or info@ridewfm.com. If you like the content and would like to support the show, please subscribe to WFM Unfiltered on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a review and follow me on LinkedIn. You can also show some love to our great sponsors for more information about them. Check out episode notes. This is your place for real WFM. So to suggest guest certain topics, get in touch at at write wfm com. See ya.

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