WFM Unfiltered

Are BPOs Worth It? | Dan Piper

• Dan Piper • Season 1 • Episode 34

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Is your BPO partner a strategic asset—or an operational liability? In this explosive episode of WFM Unfiltered, Irina pulls no punches and brings in transformation heavyweight Dan Piper to dissect the real state of Business Process Outsourcing in today’s contact centre chaos.

Dan’s 20-year career in operations and BPOs—from team manager to Global VP of Continuous Improvement—makes him uniquely qualified to expose what works, what doesn’t, and what’s quietly killing performance behind the scenes. From scaling lies to recruitment delays, offshore horror stories to crumbling leadership pipelines—nothing is off-limits.

You’ll hear exactly why some clients unknowingly set their BPOs up to fail, and how legacy inefficiencies get baked into outsourcing relationships. We challenge the obsession with language skills, break down why flexible shift expectations are fantasy, and shine a spotlight on the industry-wide attrition crisis that no one wants to talk about.

And of course, we tackle the biggest elephant in the room—why so many ops leaders throw the mess downhill for WFM and recruitment to fix, instead of taking ownership themselves. Spoiler alert: it’s not a tech problem, it’s a leadership problem.

If you’re a senior manager, ops lead, or WFM pro working with BPOs (or thinking about it), this episode might sting—but it’s the wake-up call your strategy needs.

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Show Links:

RightWFM website: www.rightwfm.com

Email: Irina@rightwfm.com

Podcast email: WFMUnfiltered@gmail.com

Podcast Directory: www.wfmunfiltered.buzzsprout.com/share

Guest Website: www.setekh.co.uk

Guest LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/piperdaniel

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Irina:

Hi everyone. Welcome to If you don't know the name of this show by now, shame on You, but it's WFM Unfiltered and we're traveling to a city in England that my guest said that nobody is aware of. So shame on my guest as well because we're off to Plymouth and we're gonna be talking about a favorite subject of mine that doesn't get enough love and that doesn't get enough coverage and it's PPOs. So I have an amazing guest joining me today, so thank you, Dan, for joining me. How are you doing?

Dan:

I am very good. Thank you. The sun is shining.

Irina:

Oh.

Dan:

a wonderful day.

Irina:

Okay, so you're no longer in England then.

Dan:

Well, I know it, it's like a miracle. There is unbroken sunshine, not a cloud in the sky. It's really, amazing today.

Irina:

What's happening? What's happening? And it's snowing on my end. And it was 30 degrees like a week ago, like hell. So before we dive into the topic of BPOs, why don't you go ahead and share a little bit about your background.

Dan:

Sure. thank you very much for introducing me, but my name is Dan Piper. have around 20 years experience with contact centers and 15 years experience with BPO. predominantly focused around operational type roles. you know, the standard journey, team manager, ops manager, senior ops manager, director, regional performance director. And in my final two years I was a global vp after continuous improvement for one of the big BPOs. I.

Irina:

Thank you so much for the introduction and I really appreciate your taking the time for this topic because your perspective, it's exactly what it's needed. So we're gonna be covering it from both ends, from WFM, but also from higher from senior leadership perspective. And my first question is... what do you think about BPOs in general? Are they worth the money that we're paying for them?

Dan:

very good question. Sneaky question. You told me you would in some curve balls and you've done it right, at the beginning. I, think B BPOs definitely have a place. they, definitely an ability to deliver service for, clients. Let's be honest, clients generally speaking, contact centers isn't their background. it's not their specialty. They sell products, they manufacture products, they develop software, et cetera, et cetera. Contact centers is not their day-to-day bread and butter. BPOs are absolutely perfect for certain client setups. Because they do have the ability to stand contact center solutions up very, quickly, and they can scale very quickly and they can position their resources very quickly in geographies of either their choice or the client's choice. when it comes down to what, you said about value for money, I think that very much depends a on the BPO. Be on the, client see, on the setup that they want because clearly the bigger BPOs have the ability to scale massively. And also a lot of clients choose to have multiple BPO players providing their services. So if you've got a large, global account, let's say they might have four or five different BPO players all providing either the same service on a line of business or different. For, those clients, it's perfect. Especially if has already made up the mind exactly what they want and what they want the BPO to do for them, whether they're just gonna be literally a service provider and basically be told, exactly as they're told that then great. but I think for other clients BPOs become strategic partners. And what I mean by a strategic partner is be working alongside that specific client to deliver the overall business objectives that client wants. it is very possible for BPOs to be part, of that partnership and a long term relationship, but. Unfortunately on occasions on certain occasions, clients don't always see BPOs as that strategic partner and they end up essentially just delivering lines on a contract. And tho those in my personal experience aren't the best relationships. But when it comes to I'm sorry to jump in again. the value for money question comes very much down to is this BPO relationship or, is the the contact center offering already optimized before it goes to the BPO if it isn't optimized before it gets to the BPO. A lot of the time that relation, that all of the inefficiencies that existed prior to BPO outsourcing, very much get inherited a lot of the, a lot of the time with, within the BPO in fairness, it's very difficult. Then stabilize the operation. And might find themselves having to pay over the odds just for the inefficiencies that the BPO has inherited. I.

Irina:

I warned you then, it's not gonna be an easy episode for you. I'm sorry. You, are gonna get yourself into the crossfire. I'm gonna start by saying that I started my career in BPOs and I have the biggest love on earth because for me, working in A BPO is the whole another piece, like the stuff that we need to deal with. It's compared to an in-house contact center, it's. It's beyond, like not only you have to deal with your end customer, but then your customer, which is your client, and it's just, it's so difficult. So for every BPO out there, I'm sending you a lot of cases and hugs and love. But to senior manager managers in BPOs, I have some questions that I have noticed that I would like to address. And before we share a bit of love towards the BPOs we need to share a bit of the problems and we know there are plenty. So I wanna start by saying, you mentioned that one of the benefits is the ability to scale quickly. That's not necessarily the case. So how do we as a client know that this specific BPO has the ability to, scale quickly?

Dan:

I think it comes down to the BPO knowing what the clients, business objectives are so what are, what is the client's aspirations? What are their growth patterns? are they new to outsourcing? Are they seasoned veterans to outsourcing? all, of these questions need to really be asked there needs to be a, solid concrete understanding, between the client. And the BPO of what exactly they're gonna be after and looking for within the contractual arrangement. I think, let's be honest, we've all seen those Gartner grids, right? Other analysts are available. But you all, you often at those Gartner grids or those analyst grids and you look for those BPOs that. That exist in the upper quadrant. And, in essence, a lot of the time decisions within clients and procurement teams are very much influenced by those Gartner grids. as for the ability to scale and whether or not the the client's gonna get the value and the expected level of service from that scale, I think it also comes down to which market you're in. whether it's the UK market, whether it's multilingual Americas, what, whatever the case may be, because clearly certain languages are much more difficult to come by within BPO. And depending on the geography that, that the client has chosen to operate in, or the BPO has chosen to operate in, it might be quite difficult to find languages in, in that area. So a again, I don't think there's a, very, I don't think there's a straightforward, easy answer as to whether or not it's, easy to scale or not, and how, does the client know? I think for me, whenever I've been working with clients in the BPO sector, I. I, I've always wanted open, honest, transparent communication because it most definitely helps to steer and guide the conversations to what is essentially gonna help and support that client the best. Most without those open and honest dialogues it, it can become a very challenging endeavor indeed. And again, it also depends on whether or not that specific client is using another BPO provider at the same time. Are, they competing with. Within particular countries, particular markets all of this stuff has to be considered.

Irina:

I'm listening to you very carefully and I wanna address some stuff that are happening in BPOs that clients are not necessarily aware of, but it does happen. I'm sorry. That's information from the kitchen. And one of them is, there are amazing big BPOs. Sometimes smaller players are more amazing. The problem in both is that everyone wants business, right? Let's agree on the fact that everyone is gonna be promising you stuff, and at the moment, when you get the business, then you actually have to deliver, which is the moment when a lot of organizations, especially the smaller ones, start the recruitment process. And it's taken a long time to get that staffing in place. my first question actually towards you is something that I. Fundamentally is an issue in my head is the locations of BPOs because we were mentioning about the ability to recruit people with specific language, and I'm always looking from the perspective of an end customer, like the person who is going to get handled over the phone, email, whatever. And I would say that as much as I understand that we're trying to minimize the cost for our client, that's why we're recruiting in certain locations. Language, I'm sorry, is not enough to prove quality for me. So I actually would like to understand from a higher up, like what do we do? it seems like the actual maximum when we're recruiting someone is like, do you speak the language? Yes. Can you write maybe in the language? Yes. Okay. You're on board. That's enough. And for me, working in a contact center is general. It's so much more than speaking the language I.

Dan:

Yeah, I, com I completely agree. The, language, you can obviously speak a language. You can write a language, but essentially, unless you're able to deal with a customer a native language it. It can become a massive challenge, in slight defense, to, BPOs here. Sometimes these language or choice destinations come from the client. let's just give it, and I'll give you a perfect example. Spanish as a language. the best country to deliver Spanish as a language Spain, right? Essen. But essentially there are occasions where clients just say, Spain's too expensive, so therefore we want native Spanish speakers. But not in Spain. Now, the challenge that you've then got is native Spanish speakers are then very few and far between when they're not in Spain. So do you do? You, have to look at your language capabilities. Where what, which destinations can we potentially find speakers? You, might just want to jump across into Morocco, for example. But depending on in Morocco you go, the number of Spanish speakers will significantly reduce yet sometimes the BPOs are given very little to work with in terms of the, Where we can really source these languages from in order to meet the, price point. But I completely agree with you, the, only time a business would ever really choose to, look for language solutions not in the, country Where they're serving is if the client has said that the price has to be lower and that then pushes the the scope of work into other lower cost geographies.

Irina:

Okay, now I get that and I agree from the perspective of the BPO, it, it makes per perfect sense what you're saying. For me, it's a bit absurd that we never get to ask the end customer, okay, you know what? What would be your preference? Because that can impact the price of our product, service, whatever you're delivering. Because I have dropped so many products and services just because. And the off chance when I need them. It's just like, it's, ridiculous. Like I, I just cannot understand what to do. So it causes hassle, it stresses me, it makes me angry'cause I already paid and I feel disrespected. So then I'm taking it out on the company. And ultimately if you're working with BPOs, can cost you business. It's really that simple. And one more thing that I find, As a big problem is that BPOs are not connected or don't feel loyalty necessarily to your brand, right, to your client because they're not your employees. Right?

Dan:

There, there's, two. There's two ways to look at that. So I'll echo exactly your sentiment. So I had a negative experience just at the weekend with what was clearly an offshore that I had to speak to in relation to my credit card. and I, ended up encountering difficulty and it's just added fuel to the fire and just increased my level of frustration. So I, I to totally sympathize with, what you are saying there, in, in terms of whether or not the BPOs align with the brand or don't align with the brand. I think that very much comes down to sometimes the specific center that is providing that service. Right now. I'll go back to my early operational days. so probably about 15 years ago, I was an operations manager on very well known, retail client in the uk. And we set this client up from scratch and it was the, creation of a technical support function. That was previously existing within branch of this specific client. we invested so much time, effort, and attention on that specific client in the UK because they were a premium reputable brand. And we ran a very focused and specific recruitment and training campaign for those Now. What was specifically unique to this particular client is if you asked any of the advisors or the staff who they worked for, they would tell you they worked for the client. They wouldn't even tell you that they worked for the BPO, even though they did work for the BPI. And clearly that there are instances and scenarios whereby on the flip side of the coin, if those employees have not been recruited with a proper brand image in mind and given proper immersive training to support that specific brand, it absolutely can go the other way. totally agree with you.

Irina:

So for me, and again, I'm looking as an end customer, isn't it kind like if I ask you, who do you work for to identify as the brand? Because you're not working for them. That's not your employer. You're representing them.

Dan:

Yep.

Irina:

you work for them and you can do a lot of damage.

Dan:

Yes, you can. But at the end of the day that, that could also be said if you were an agent who actually worked for that company within the, in, in-house centers, you could do just as much damage being an employee of that business that Basically woke up on the wrong side of the bed that morning and decided that you were gonna give a certain level of service, which didn't meet that, of, the customer. I mean, I, get your sentiments on that. it comes down to a balance and clients have to weigh up. Do they want to provide this service themselves and can they do it at the scale that the BPOs can can't? They? Because if they can do it themselves, they then have to ask themselves the question, do they want to do it? like, I, like I mentioned at the beginning the, these clients, their bread and butter is not contact center operations. Their bread and butter is either the retail aspect of things or the manufacturing or the, development of specific software, et cetera, et cetera. Why. Would they want to divert their attention to something like contact center in the same way as a lot of the time, clients might outsource their cleaning. I. And, a lot of the time outsource their cleaning. they don't, employ clean cleaners themselves in a lot of cases. Clearly they do in, some, but it depends on the, specific location.

Irina:

Okay, so let's, go a little bit more to the operational side because for me it's it's curious when a. Always comes with a certain set of expectations and you agree on, okay, we're gonna be providing you with X amount of interactions, or we need X amount of hours, whatever, What happens if you have too much business that you can service or handle with the existing and staffing. But you're aware that business nowadays especially doesn't come like. Every five minutes. So what do you do in case you have to share staffing? Like how, do you make these decisions? Because these decisions are usually not coming from the workforce team, which I represent. It comes from someone that says, okay, either we make someone unhappy. Either we start looking for solutions that are not necessarily in favor for either of our clients.

Dan:

so there's a few different models to this. So the Shared Service Bureau setup it is when clients essentially know that they are gonna be part of a shared resource pool. And there are specific BPOs that are actually set up specifically to deal with these shared setups. And a lot of these the smaller BPOs can, actually be extremely price competitive with. With offering those sorts of solutions, and the clients will, happily accept it if it means that that they're gonna be paying less and keep keeping their overheads down. And that agent population might be serving five different clients. It might be 10. could, even be more. And the, these sorts of setups are generally more simplistic. Operational setups, whether they're scripted and they, can also be stood up tactically in, in order to deal with things like product recourse, for example. that, and they're very, effective indeed at, doing that. the other avenue that, you spoke about though. Around whether or not there's too little work and are they gonna be sharing or, whatever that not every operation is able to share. Staff. It all depends on the contractual arrangements, but also the security and privacy setups. So for example, if you are on a PCI compliant campaign, for example, you are not allowed to share those staff. You're not even allowed to share the PCs or the networks. With, different clients because everything is so securely locked down in order to protect that specific client infrastructure. It's slightly different though if, for example, a client is ramping down at the same time as another one is ramping up but then you, find that your staffing then needs to go the other way in a month or twos time, you're not reasonably speaking, gonna want to let. tenured people go and have to then recruit them again in six, eight weeks time. So there are occasions within A BPO where they can reassign staff for temporary periods of time, it's not, well, I'm gonna be doing these sets with this client in the morning and then this set of calls for a different client in the afternoon. It doesn't generally work like that. they would be reassigned and redeployed onto another campaign for a set period of time, ordinarily to cope with the, seasonality in the, core volumes. But I, can't speak for every BPO. There might be certain BPOs that do it in, a slightly different way. But from my own specific. That's generally how it works.

Irina:

I really the, political answer. I agree with you. This is how it's also supposed to work. It's not how it works all the time, and I, we, need to address it. Sometimes what happens is. Let's take a step back and I think we can all agree that the biggest problem in the industry at the moment is attrition. We can't find people. We have the same set of agents that are going from one contact center to another, and everyone is basically constantly upping the salary with. A bit of money and you have that rotating pool. But we can agree that most contact centers, especially BPOs, are kind of struggling with the, staffing. So usually from my experience, what I have seen is when you have a client that has a certain demands. Provide me with those hours and stuff. When you get yourself into trouble, you have people leaving or you can't recruit fast enough, you do have deliverables most of the time. You also have some sort of conditions. I need to be able to handle X amount or deliver that service level or handle that amount of email. What happens when you have two, three, couple of clients at the same time? That all of them gets upset. You kind of need to spread these resources, not necessarily addressing it, because clients don't care that you're in trouble. Clients don't care that you are losing employees or that another client is upset. They care that their contract is not respected. We can't really say that, oh, you know what, but do we have someone upset? So we had to pull up two people to kind of put them on the other contract. So we don't say this stuff, but we do this stuff all the freaking time.

Dan:

Yeah. for, me no excuse. I get that we've got attrition I get that people to the conclusions that people are just jumping from one contact center to the next. I think that there's an awful lot of excuses that exist contact centers and I think we. are so many excuses, and people are so used to saying those excuses that they're now starting to believe their own excuses. And I don't honestly think that those excuses be able to fly. Now reason I'm saying that is because from my own personal experience, I was always the guy within within operations that got sent to fix anything and everything that went wrong. they sometimes fluctuate. But, where I am, where I come from and where I've had a very strong relationship with workforce management previously, I would always pretty much know what my forecast or assumed volume is, 13 months in advance. Right. Because based on historical trended data you are able to predict where your peaks and troughs are in terms of seasonality. Now, the only time where that doesn't really work is if there's something special cause that gets thrown into the mix that nobody could possibly have anticipated. But for me the. The good mechanism working with WFM and recruitment and training and operations, it's all one system. It's not one system versus another system. forecast information once it's received from a client should be absolutely passed on WFMW. FM should already be in the place where they're mapping this, data out. For the future. and I know that sometimes BPOs and other people say, oh, but we're only locked to 90 days. you might be locked at 90 days to allow for changes in the forecasting and sometimes even 60 days, sometimes. 30 days. might have locked your forecast, but that doesn't stop you forecasting out for the entire duration for which you have that, forecast available now for me. There's planning calls that should be happening every single week involving WFM right in the center. operations, recruitment, training, and account management. All five of those different parties should be absolutely, fully am knowledgeable of where the requirements are, and you should be staffing according to that forecast. The only time that there might be a slight change or difference to that is if the client has said, we, are giving you this forecast, but we can't afford to staff to that forecast. If they can't afford to staff to that forecast, then you can only staff to a specific number and, then it's down to the operation to manage and mitigate as much as they possibly, can. But being a WFM professional, you know that once occupancy goes above a certain level, you end up at, you can't sustain. Excessive levels of occupancy without it having a material impact on either absenteeism, attrition, quality of work, just general wellbeing. And I know that we mentioned earlier, or sorry, you, you mentioned attrition earlier. I think also recruitment and WFM need to partner much, more closely than what they do ordinarily. In contact center setups. what I mean by that is if are running an operation that's covering 18 hours a day, you in, no one in their right mind would ever really sign up to, as a candidate covering all 18 hours in, in that day. So it, but. I see so many adverts go out. Job adverts go out, which say we are looking for full-time, fully flexible people. Right. we're in 2025, full-time. Fully flexible people will not come magically to your contact center because we're dealing with completely different generations now. No one wants to be starting a shift at six o'clock one day, 10 o'clock at the next day, three o'clock the next day, covering all operational hours that could be sent. People want structure. In their day. So depending on the size of the operation, it's within the gift of WFM to be able to supply recruitment with a series of shifts that they can target specifically to a specific group of people instead of just putting one advert out, which says we are looking for full-time, fully flexed people that will be covering all of these hours. Guess what? The next job that comes up, I know which one I'm gonna leave to go to. And it's the one with better, more regular hours. So I think that there is so much more that operations recruitment and WFM can do to make shift patterns more appealing in the first place, which would reduce in, certain respects.

Irina:

So it's an interesting point, and I agree with everything that you're saying. I have several thoughts about it, but I specifically wanna challenge you on this point. Who is supposed to fix that? Who is supposed to come and say, okay let's make it a bit more appealing. Let's offer a set of shifts or whatever that candidate can choose from whatever it is. Is it recruitment? Is it WFM? Who is the, driver in this one?

Dan:

So I, I think it depends. I, whenever I've been given a, failing operation it's always been my job to identify the reasons why it's failing and put solutions on the table in order to overcome some of these challenges. it's, never been, sorry. Carry on.

Irina:

I wanna stop you again specifically here because I wanna address this to you from your perspective, to give you the the possibility to, fully go in that direction. Operations, managers, contact centers, managers, senior managers. Do not take enough responsibility. They're throwing all the bullshit down down the ladder for WFM teams, recruitment teams, whatever teams and the janitors to fix it. But they are not the ones saying, okay, guys. Listen up, we need to make it work. It's like such a silo type of organization, especially in BPOs because I have worked with so many, they don't even give you access to the client. So I have to pretty much guess or hope that somebody is gonna give me a forecast and for me, I'm sorry, responsibility is somewhere up somewhere I need and gather.

Dan:

and I've seen scenarios where where I've experienced exactly what you've just said. Right. And I think it comes down to, where, who is taking responsibility and who is take, who is driving accountability I, mean, I've been in the contact center game a long time as, I mentioned before, longer ago there was much better training available for leadership functions.

Irina:

Yeah.

Dan:

I'm not just talking senior leadership, I'm talking team leaders, team managers, ops managers, site directors. There were prescr, there was prescriptive content. at every single level in order to provide a holistic overview of the areas that they needed to take ownership and responsibility for in recent years, my gut feel is that training has diminished, I think skillset has significantly eroded, and I think Covid has a part to play in that. Because the second that everyone went into lockdown, ev of these businesses instantly looked for the remote easier alternative. And when people moved to that easier remote alternative, they didn't necessarily build training collateral that met the exact requirements and competencies that existed in a face-to-face environment. What they thought was, this covid scenario's gonna be over before we know it. We are not gonna put the effort and attention into building these stable training courses to support the leadership. And then what happened? Covid wasn't over before we knew them. dragged on and on. We lost good people during Covid because there were mass scale redundancies across many industries. A lot of that skillset disappeared. And with it, the competency disappeared. But we didn't then have appropriate training content to backfill the skill and knowledge gap. The only thing that was really left available for certain contact centers was a promote from within approach. those people that they were promoting from within also didn't have the competency because they were being trained via online platforms. And a lot of the time there wasn't the ability to discuss specific scenarios and, how you would potentially deal with those specific scenarios. GI given the chance that, so that level of collaboration and discussion almost evaporated overnight and it was replaced with this online multiple choice question, answer set up. So clearly I see that there is a massive gap with competency. Now within leadership across all facets of contact centers. And I'm not just specifically talking about operations. I think seen. Competency gaps within WFM? I've seen it within recruitment. I've seen it within training. I've, seen it within the, upper echelons of leadership as well, within the site directors. People that have been promoted into those roles that have come in from the outside, which don't even have a contact center background, that don't understand what the significance of an AHT is. so I think with all of these things down together, they've just created this monster of a problem, and now it's ended up, as you've quite rightly articulated this siloed mentality. people are just looking out for their own section and they're not even looking out for their own section with the right level of, competency in mind. That, and in a lot of cases, they're making up as they go along. And the, this is where I think there needs to be more strength in senior leadership that drives a, collaborative Responsibility and accountability culture. And I think if I wasn't the, presence and personality that I am, would've been very, easy for me to get sucked into that. Set up as well and just say, well, this is a WFM problem. Go and sort it WFM. But I, from my experience, I know that you're not gonna sort out a problem by passing the buck and responsibility to one area of the business to fix. It's important for. Everybody that's involved within that system to come together and work out and build solutions to tackle the problem as a collective entity, not as a silo.

Irina:

I love that. I absolutely love that. And before I let you go for, today, because I'm already having the naughty ideas of webinars, you know, I mean, I should. Always have something in mind. And for a long time I wanted to address the topic of BPOs and what works, what doesn't work, what's happening in the kitchen. And I know that this episode was a little bit more on the higher up overall, the, situation about BPOs. So hopefully you're gonna take me on my effort offer to join me for a webinar. Before that, any last words of advice? What makes for a successful BPO for a healthy BPO?

Dan:

respect every departmental entity for the skillset that it brings. Collaborative working is absolutely the best way to achieve brilliance. There is no hero in this, whether it be sales account management, operations, WFM, or recruitment or training or every other function. You need every single function within A BPO be adequately and properly trained to deliver excellence for the client. it's not a one man show. That's all I've really.

Irina:

I love it. I'm gonna mention one more thing. In defense of clients, I'm sorry, I just have to throw it in there. Please be transparent with your client, with your end customer. Please be transparent. Like I absolutely hate when people are hiding stuff or lying or receiving, or doing bullshit because it's gonna get out there, it's gonna do more damage, and you'll be surprised how much people are willing to. Compromise work with you, collaborate with you if you're just giving them the respect of saying where things are. So please be transparent. That's how we end up for today. So Dan, thank you so much for joining me. I'm gonna be connecting with you offline again. Thank you.

Dan:

you. It's been a pleasure.

Irina:

Likewise.

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