WFM Unfiltered

Agents wishes vs Customer Demand | Dan Smitley

• Dan Smitley • Season 1 • Episode 13

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In this episode of WFM Unfiltered, we're diving into one of the most complex balancing acts in the world of Workforce Management: how to meet customer demand while keeping agents happy. Joining me is the one and only Dan Smitley, a WFM veteran with over 20 years of experience in contact centers, consulting, and strategy. Dan's not only an expert at the technical side of WFM, but he also brings a deep understanding of people—the heart and soul of any operation.

We talk candidly about the real tension between business needs and agent preferences, a topic that every WFM professional has struggled with. Dan challenges us to think differently: Is it possible to give agents more of what they want without compromising on service levels? And more importantly, can doing so actually improve overall performance?

One of the key takeaways from this episode is empathy in WFM. Dan and I discuss why understanding agents as human beings—not just data points—is crucial to the success of any WFM team. We also dig into the future of WFM as automation and AI continue to transform the landscape. Should we embrace a fully automated future, or is the human touch irreplaceable? Dan has some fascinating thoughts that might just change your perspective.

Finally, we share tips on how WFM teams can pilot new initiatives, manage agent expectations, and avoid the pitfalls of entitlement that can derail even the best-laid plans. This is an episode packed with real-world advice, humor, and insights that you won’t want to miss.

Don't forget to subscribe to our channel for more candid conversations about WFM at www.youtube.com/@WFMUnfiltered?sub_confirmation=1


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Irina:

Hello everyone and happy Tuesday. I am your host, Irina, and this is WFM Unfiltered. And today we are traveling all the way to South Carolina before I say the wrong thing once again, and the guest I have is amazing and I am a huge fan of him. He is incredible professional and even more amazing human being. So I cannot wait for you to meet him. Once again, because I know that he's very famous and there's no way that you haven't heard of him. But I'm going to hand over to you, Dan. How are you today? And thank you for

Dan:

I'm good. It's still time zone difference, right? Thanks for traveling all the way to South Carolina. Still a little early. So I'll be drinking my coffee this morning out of my my Harry Potter Ravenclaw mug. But I'm doing well. Thank you. A little background about me. So I've been in the contact center space for 20 years. I started on the phones taking tech support. Calls for a dial up internet company. Stumbled into WFM as many of us do, and I've been here in WFM for about 18. Years now, about 17, 18 years. A variety of different roles, variety of different environments, BPO, Startup currently now with a large health system and based out of New York area in the States. And I also do a side consulting business. So 2 3 Consulting. That's the number 2, the word 3, consulting. com. I try to help organizations think critically about WFM. And you can always catch me on LinkedIn. I put Will Ferrell GIFs up every Friday and try to just make humor around WFM. So it's not just boring RTA and WFM forecasting tips. I try to be funny at times, but that's me. So happy to be here and have a conversation with you.

Irina:

Thank you so much for this introduction. And just to add, Absolutely follow Dan, follow his company, find him on LinkedIn. You'll find the 2 3 Consulting there and the link as well and follow his content because you will learn a lot. You will also laugh a lot. So all good stuff there. So make your way to his LinkedIn. And on that note, Dan, we've been brainstorming about the topic that I know you're super passionate about. And it's one that usually triggers a lot of discussions. And it is the balance. And how do we deal with meeting customer demand? All while we are actually meeting agents wishes and preferences for their scheduling. So I think it's easier said than done, but what are your thoughts on this concept?

Dan:

I think for me, the kind of general starting point is. It's an afterthought for a lot of workforce management teams. I think the principles, the practice, the foundations of workforce management going back to Erlang is about trying to predict call volume, predict customer demand, and then if we can predict it, we can align resources. And that basic fundamental concept, align resources to forecasted demands is what WFM has always been doing. And unfortunately, I think that's where a lot of WFM teams sit. Stopped that they haven't really gone past meeting business demand. So I love having this conversation just as a, it's a bit of a challenge sometimes for WFM teams. What if meeting customer demand was only a part of the puzzle? And what if the other piece was about meeting agent demand? I think that word alone makes people a little bit concerned and nervous, right? Like they're not allowed to demand anything. It's a job, but they're, they can have once, but agents, team members can't have. And so it's a fun conversation. That's typically where I try to encourage people to at least consider, there might be more to the equation than simply the customer demand. Where, what are you hearing on your side? Do you hear a similar need for this conversation or are you guys on that side of the ocean already figured this all out and you guys know how to give agents everything they want?

Irina:

It's a very cool one, and the one that is absolutely mandatory, at least from my experience, and actually it's a great tool. Segway to a previous episode that I had with a guest of mine about empathy towards agents and whether this is the job of WFM or team lead. So hi, Dimitri. I hope you're listening to this episode. We're going to be talking about you and choosing their own schedules. For me, it's a part of showing empathy towards their life and personal wishes and how they're spending their time. Now, usually when most of the organizations are coming from the position hello, you signed a contract, you are being paid. You can just show up whenever you want. And I can understand that point of view because it is a business after all. We need to ensure that we have a business so you can get paid, so you can go do your daily activities. On the other hand, I think both you and I would agree that Contact center job is a tough one. It's the one that we're usually rotating people all the freaking time. And we're dealing with a lot of attrition. So we do need to provide them some sort of flexibility. Otherwise. We're not going to have people to work with. A great chat for the people that are promoting AI, by the way, and how it will replace agents. So that's their chance. But I think that customer demand can be achieved so much easier if we start Reacting to our agents as human beings, understand them as customers as well. They're people, the more we meet their demands, the more flexible they're going to be with us in our business. The more they're gonna align with the goals of the company. So I do think there's sometimes a position where you need to draw the line. You can't just accept absolutely every single wish and demand. But, why not look for a solution for them? And that was actually the conversation that I had with Dimitri a while back. Oh, it's not our job to look for a solution for them, it's Tim Lee's job. No, we're it's work on management. We are dealing with that part of the puzzle. Why it's not us looking for a solution? So I'm curious to hear how you feel about this position.

Dan:

is it our job to hear from them? If it's not our job, then we know our schedules are going to be even that much more fluid. I think workforce management teams are tired of the amount of adjustments that we have to make. To a schedule, right? And so let's say for just an example, we do allow team leads, the operations team to go and try to figure out how to balance the needs of the employees. And maybe they're closer to the employee and it makes sense. Okay. Maybe, but then they're going to have to relay that information to us, which means anything that we've already put into the schedule is going to have to be changed, or let's say maybe for a second, we haven't made the schedule yet. That means that the operations team is just a pass through, it's just a middle person, right? Which sounds like an unnecessary step and seems inefficient. The whole point of WFM is that we're as efficient as possible. Like, why are we creating inefficiencies in this process? Let's make it as close to the agent as possible. Going back to your last comment around providing more flexibility, providing A place for agents to feel like we're listening to them. You went to give them the schedule that they want. And then you also went to letting them come into work whenever they want. And I know those were just shorthands of these are general concepts, but I want to encourage people to also realize you don't have to go there. Some people do, right? Some people, I think, create such great flexibility that it's wonderful. But for those that are, have a little bit of heartache or heartburn or hesitation to be able to even go down this path. We're not asking you to just throw your schedules out the window and allow the agents to do whatever they want. We're asking you to have a conversation, right? For me, balancing customer demands and agent demands simply starts with asking. asking. the agents what they would like, not giving them everything, but simply asking the question, what would make your environment a little bit better? If you could create a schedule, what would that look like? If you could change 30 minutes on your schedule, how would you like that to be changed? I think for me, it's those steps. What step could we take towards providing agents more of what they're looking for? While still meeting the customer demand. That's, that for me is the most important conversation. It's not even, here's the menu of options that you can choose from. And there's only one right one. It's about encouraging WFM teams to think about what is that next step I can take towards empowering agents and giving them more options while still meeting the customer demand.

Irina:

It's a brilliant point. And I think this is where the process gets a little bit broken and maybe it gets broken in the execution step. Because I have seen it with myself and with my own teams that at some point you're also asking agents what would make you feel better in your daily work. How can I accommodate your needs so you are more productive, more efficient, happier at work? And we're making that change and we're making that tweak and we're anticipating that people would be Maybe grateful they will be happier with our extra effort and it actually bites us in the end, yes. I self censored myself. Because we started having even more demands and now it's no longer us giving something additional. Now it becomes like a mandatory request that you as a WFM team is supposed to meet. And then by the time that you acknowledge what you have done, you have absolutely released a beast, basically, because they, agents can now request everything, and they're even more miserable if you decline their request. What do we do? How do we execute this in the

Dan:

Yeah, no, I think that's, God, that hits way too close to home. That. That frustration. I personally have felt this frustration of what do you, who do you think you are? That's how I almost want to approach it, right? Like I have given you so much and the fact that I want to take away this small thing to make a course correction and everyone's freaking out or the fact that I've given you this and now you're asking for this, oh my God, it's, you hit a nerve. You definitely hit a nerve for that one. It's so frustrating. What do we do? What lessons I've learned around this is when introducing new possibilities, new options, you strongly message them as a pilot, as a test, right? We are going to introduce this. And so the simple question around what would improve your environment if you could change your schedule? You put a big old bold statement right after that says, That's not to say we're going to give you your adjustment. We're just information gathering, right? If you go out there and say, we're looking to provide some more flexibility by providing these schedules, you say, we are going to review this after X months to see if it's working and it may go away after so many months. Like you just keep messaging the temporariness, if that's a word, the Of the options to make sure that everyone understands this can go away at any given point. This is not a foreclone conclusion of what we're going to do. So it's the, one of the few things. And maybe you just keep rotating different pilots. You keep rotating different options. That way, no one gets used to or stuck on. No, you gave me this three years ago and I've always had this now, right? And I don't ever want to give it up. If you just keep moving through different options, you keep maybe the really good ones, but you just keep rotating through different things that way. Maybe they can't get used to it and demand more. But I do think it's human nature. I think I probably do it where I'm like, Oh, this cool thing. You gave me that one time. Now I want it all of the time. Something as simple as a restaurant, right? You go, we have Chipotles over here. There's a particular type of protein that's new for the season. I'm like, but this is delicious. I want this now all of the time. Why is it limited time only going away? I can't fault them, but man, is it hard when what you feel like is a step towards helping someone suddenly becomes an expectation and now they demand it all the time. That's I'm curious. This one's a hard one for me. I think just messaging is an important piece. What about you? What have you done to help make sure that people don't start getting entitled around this?

Irina:

It's interesting and I actually love that you have mentioned a little bit of a solution around communication because I think this is the major point. This is the foundation and actually it's very important that you have consistency. So it's not like we're releasing a test scheduling based on agent's preferences or wishes. And then you come back eight months later and say, Oh, remember, it was a pilot. Now, F you, we're going to take it away. That, that's going to have the opposite effect. So I really love that you're approaching this with a consistent messaging. Now I started reflecting based on everything that you have set around entitlement or managing, and I started thinking, okay, but workforce management for me, if you take the terminology, it's. and how are you working with your employees to meet customers demands, right? So it's about how do you manage humans to help other humans. And then I started thinking, okay, if it's employee management in the essence, Who should be responsible for that if you have any issues? Is it too new to figure out a solution? Do you involve HR? Because this is human relations in the company. So I started getting into that rabbit hole. Oh, you know what? Hold on. What do we do then? But then the issue that I always have with HR, it's. Somehow they're forgetting often the operation aspect of things and they solely focus on agents. So always the concern is you're going to say, wow, you gave them that shift. Now you're forever bound to execute that shift. But they're forgetting that in the end, it's a business. If the business is gone, if we go bankrupt. There is not going to be a need of that shift. It's really that simple.

Dan:

Yeah.

Irina:

And that's why I think it's a great topic because it's a complete rabbit hole and one that cannot be approached easily. One that I think AI would win in certain aspects because we get out the emotional aspect of availability.

Dan:

So what if, let's play that out a little bit. Let's say AI is involved. We remove the emotions of it and it suddenly becomes pure logic as to what an agent is allowed to do to meet customer demand, right? So we have flexibility. We have an option of an employee coming and going dependent upon the logic to make sure that it works for the business, works for the customer. I think that's, it's almost like a dream state for a lot of people. If we get to that place, do you believe that the employee will feel taken care of, or accommodated, or supported in their schedule needs? I don't think so, and I'm not confident this is a good idea as we may edit this out, but It feels like that manual processing, what do you need, how can I support you, and how can we work to create a compromise that gets you closer to what you're looking for, creates an emotional connection that actually encourages the employee to feel connected to the organization, to possibly feel more of an emotional connection to work, and by pulling the WFM piece out of the manual approach and go full automation, Now it becomes very transactional, and the employee doesn't feel more supported. It just feels like they're playing in the system, and the system isn't supporting them. It now just becomes a transaction. I'm curious what you think of, I'm not confident. I'm advocating for manual work instead of WFM, but I do wonder if there isn't some emotional value there by having Us review it and trying to compromise with an individual, not just playing if then statements inside of a system. Yeah.

Irina:

all, I'll give the right to you to decide. I don't want to edit this out because I completely agree with you. And I think it's a brilliant point about creating that emotional attachment to the company. For myself, I have worked in both cases where I do feel emotional connection with the company and I'm going a hundred extra miles. And the one that technically I'm getting better But I have better perception, better perks, and I don't have the emotional attachment, and I just do my job, and I don't care. That's the extent to where I'm going. And I don't even believe that you mean manual work in the sense of let's go and push buttons all the time. I think that manual work, you're more associating it with that kind of a bond human to human. That you don't want to replace entirely the human aspect. When I was mentioning the AI, that hype about we will not need agents. So there won't be a need to double script them if you don't need agents. And if you have AI, whether it's chatbot, voicebot, whatever bot, the bot itself do not care about when is it going to be triggered. So you're removing that emotional attachment to, okay, but I cannot be available cause I need to go on a concert or somewhere else. And I have a family kind of thing to visit. Again for me, as a customer, and I'm always trying to think not only as a WFM er, but as a customer, I very often, if not always, would like to speak to a person just because I want acknowledgement from a human being about what I'm saying and feeling. And I know from my profession, seeing all the technology, I know that I can get that acknowledgement from a bot. I don't want that. I just don't want it as a customer. There, there are simple things, transactions that I'll feel comfortable with. But to give you an example that last month my brother passed away and it's associated with also dealing with a lot of transaction of administration papers and stuff. So you need to either go or go on site with different departments to deal with a lot of paperwork. And. I was faced with some bots that technically you can insert your kind of input to get you to the right place, to give you the right papers and stuff. But at that moment, I'm so out of it, I'm in shock, I'm crying, I'm having meltdowns. I want a human being. This is why What I need in my brain. I know that probably the answer will be the same because this is the process. They deal with the same information, but it makes me feel better. To know that I'm having that emotional connection and conversation with another human being. So that's why I don't think AI will or should completely wipe out the agent pool. But having this set, and I know that we're distracting a little bit from the subject, dealing with humans will always be based on emotions. And I think that if we approach it from the set, will you sign a contract, deal with it? Okay, I feel I'm gone and I go somewhere else when I have more empathetic leadership, when they care about me, when they ask me. But to wrap this around and to go back to the case, I don't know if you have been in that situation, certainly happened a lot of times to me and I fall into that trap, is when you grant a wish or desire to In quote, the wrong person. And by the wrong person, these people that would be more vocal, that would be always taking advantage of the system and basically make it impossible for others to meet their demand. And thus pushing you to actually stop the process or to stop the perks for everyone else, just because of that. Full of people who are abusing the system. So what do you think? Have you noticed that? Have you been through this scenario?

Dan:

no, absolutely. I, there are definitely those individuals. You create policies for the exceptions too often where this is what we want to do, but we have to create a policy for all of this because that one person, and, I value that person to some extent, the loophole finders the people that are going to say, but did you think about this, and they're going to go and find a way to weasel through it, and you're going to be like, crap, you're right I didn't think about that, and now you just got away with it. XYZ that I did not intend for you to be able to do on your own. It, there's a love hate relationship there, right? There's a sense of like respect. You found the loophole. And it's annoying that I have to build for you that one person when everyone else isn't trying to push the boundaries and push the system. And I think that's just part of the responsibility of being a leader. That's just part of being responsible for policies and for how things work. You can't, especially when you start getting to larger and larger scales, You can't just assume everyone's a good person. Everyone's going to know the heart of the law and they're going to appeal to the heart. Some people are going to be like, the letter of the law says this. You didn't say I could get in trouble if I did this. You only said I could get in trouble if I did that. I didn't do that. I did this. And so it's, it is, it's frustrating. You do have to consider it. You do have to build for it. But I think in the end, it just makes the program that much more robust. It makes it that much more strong and solid. So that way there is confidence in saying it's fair, it's equitable, it's appropriate, it's balanced, and it's working. And if it can't work because someone said, no, I didn't do that. I did this. And if that breaks your whole system, then it didn't, you didn't build it. Like it shouldn't be able to crumble that quickly, but you keep hitting on these points of like people creating expectations, people. another way to say it is people ruining a good thing. You're like, stop it. Stop it. I built something fun. I built something great and you're trying to ruin it. And that's just the reality of humans. That's who we interact with. I think a lot of times when we talk about this, we talk about this as balancing. Balancing the employee need and the business need, or the employee need and the customer need. And I think that language of balance doesn't get to the heart of the matter. It's a tension. Balance feels if I had the appropriate weight in each hand, I can sit here and not move too much because I'm balanced. But it's not a, it's a tension. It's a pulling apart. It feels like you're getting yanked this way for the agents to want these things. You're getting yanked this way because the customers need it. And it's uncomfortable, and it doesn't feel good. And I think that, unfortunately, is what WFM needs to be able to do. We need to live in that tension. We need to feel the pull. And if we don't feel a counter pull, if we're just yanked towards the customer or yanked towards the employee, and we don't have that counter pull, we just feel comfortable. I think I'd go so far as to say we're not doing our job.

Irina:

I agree a hundred percent. And unfortunately that's how I feel when we're too often it's business. Yeah, it's business, but we are dealing with people. We don't, and that's the issue for me with WFM that we're thinking and talking too much about math and data, which is great, which is your foundation to deal with people. And the people is what you need to care about moment. Actually, I was curious when you get in the situation like this, when you get these people who are basically ruining something good for everyone and they get on your nerves to the point when somebody completely undeserving will go and ask something from you and you're going to have it until here. And you're going to unleash. Everything that you have inside of you to the wrong person. Do you have any kind of approach how we can maybe deal with that? How can we prevent it from happening? Any kind of strategy? What can we do?

Dan:

How do we, is it, how do I deal with the difficult people? Or is the question, how do I help avoid those expectations? Those people just expecting to get whatever they want.

Irina:

Both.

Dan:

Okay. How do I deal with difficult people? I'm quick to apologize. I know I'm not, I don't deal with people perfectly. And so I've joked, I've got three daughters and they're approaching college age or university age. And. I've said for a long time, I'm like, the first lesson I taught them was forgiveness because I know I'm going to need it whenever they leave the house and realize how much I've screwed them up. Like I know I'm an imperfect person. I know I don't do everything right. So it's even in a professional environment, like I'm quick to apologize. Cause I am going to unleash on the wrong person. I am going to say the wrong thing. I am thinking about multiple people in my career that I've screwed up. But if I can prevent it. It's recentering. Just yesterday, I took a meeting outside. I just laid in the, on the yard, had the sun on my face while listening into a call and just tried to like, get into a better headspace. These walls are fine and all, this is a nice office well enough, but I just need to go away sometimes, go on a walk, even if it means I can't leave my meetings and can't leave my chats and my emails, but just getting out helps. So that's preventative. How do you avoid The environment where people become entitled to some extent it's hiring and coaching and training, right? To some extent it's finding the right talent. And when people are acting in a way that isn't how you want them to act, you don't shun them. You don't kick them out. But you do make it known that's not how we work around here. That's not our culture. That's not our environment. And so someone that says I wasn't trying to be entitled. I just expect it. That is entitlement. Let's have a conversation about this. And it's hard. It's not easy, but I, for me, I try to be as transparent as possible. I try to be as honest as possible. And I think a lot of times people reciprocate that when you don't come as this perfect professional leader, but you come as someone who's trying, someone who is learning and someone who's going to screw up, it encourages them to do the same, that they're then able to learn to try. And if they screw up, own it. I don't know. It's a rabbit hole, wide ranging answer, but that's. That's where my

Irina:

But I think it's a very good one and one that people should apply more because what I have seen is that people were people are quick to get defensive to say, yeah, but these are customers, but the goals, the service level, blah, blah, and someone contact center manager and come with all those excuses. But from my approach, even dealing with a lot of difficult people, if you work closely with them, And then you're honest and explain them the situation and say, listen. You're right about it. We do have that loophole. I can grant it for you and then the next week I'll have to stop it forever for everyone. So if this is something that you as a team are willing to risk, then it's fine. I'll give it to you. But I think I have noticed that once My team and I are working closer to agents and checking on them and I'll say, Hey, how are you feeling today? Hey, what's up? Are you feeling okay? I've noticed that you're more quiet than usual. I see that you're smiling. Is it a good occasion? Just build that relationship so they don't see your team as the one that sits in the corner behind the wall and they're just. micromanaging and trying to catch you doing something wrong. I have seen brilliant results. I have seen my team screwing up and then the agents are defending them and thinking about solution, how to fix the situation for a mistake that they have done. So that's going to be my advice to everyone. Just understand that you're working with humans. That's the foundation. We're not working with numbers. We're working with people. And

Dan:

I would say one, one thought I had is, and I know we're coming up on the end here too often, I think people that might be moving in this direction, wanting to accommodate more agents to be more human centered. And I think that's wonderful. Don't start in their own WFM environment. If you're looking to connect with agents as people, start with your team. I'll leave with one tip before we wrap up. Something I'm doing with my team currently, not a WFM team, but it's actually just the leadership crew that I have. Every team meeting I have with them, we start with, and I stole this completely from Brene Brown, she's an amazing author and speaker if you haven't heard her, but give, what's your number, and what's your two words? And so what's your number is on a scale of one to 10. How maxed out are you? One's I can't believe I get to work here and get paid for this. This is the best thing in my life. 10 is I'm close to tears and screaming and I hate it and I am maxed out. And then the two words is to describe your emotional state. We don't dive into any of it. It's simply a context to have a conversation. Like yesterday, I was at an 8, really burnt out, really high on the list. I had another person on my team that was an 8. I don't dive into, hey, why are you an 8 today, and what's going on in this call? That's a side conversation, and I just check in. Hey, how are you doing? Have you gotten a break? Are things, freeing up a little bit? How can we help? But it's just that small little thing. I think that's something that we can do in our own teams, right? In these WFM teams. To start humanizing each other. We don't need to get personal and get into everyone's business in front of everyone, but to simply say, as a team, we're averaging really high right now. And so when we're dealing with each other, let's have more grace, let's have more patience because we're all here, or we're all really low and we're loving it. And this is gonna be a great day and let's all have fun together because we're all a three. And I think that's just, that context helps. Normalize the humanness at work. And once we can start doing that in our own environments, I think it makes that much easier for us to do it with our teams and our agents and our partners at HR and our partners in operations. And so one last tip I would probably have is we want to humanize things. If we want to treat people as people around schedules and everything else, let's start in our own environment and start humanizing our own teams.

Irina:

I love it. I love it. And I'm tempted to wrap this conversation up, but I wanted to throw a curveball at you because I know we might end up editing this out, but hear me out. I want you to give me your opinion. I know your opinion, but I want you to Raise it from your perspective. When we're speaking about humanness and inhumanizing a little bit more the word space, tell me, why do you hate so much when somebody is saying that we're a family?

Dan:

my God.

Irina:

It works. But

Dan:

are not family at work because I do not fire my kids. I don't. That this concept that somehow we are this all family is family. And I get that sometimes we get estranged, but the, we don't get to get out of the fact that the, the sibling you haven't talked to in 20 years is still, in fact, your sibling, they are still connected to you. It also puts so much unnecessary pressure on someone that wants to leave. Think about that, right? I would be a horrible parent if I guilted my kids to go to college, local, because, we're family, what am I going to do if you leave you're so important to me, I have to have you in my home, and it restricts their growth, it restricts their options, it guilts them into staying with you, and do we really want to do that in an organization? We need to create a space that allows an employee. To say, I would like to grow, and I don't think I can grow here, I'm going to go somewhere else. We need to create a space that says, you all are heading in this direction, and I don't want to go in that direction. I want to try something different, right? So my kids can then say, you guys like traveling, and I want to establish roots, I'm going to go establish roots here. And there isn't guilt. They don't feel bad by leaving the nest and going somewhere else. We're not fam It just creates such unhealthy bonds. And really all we're trying to say, it's lazy. Cause all we're really trying to say is, We like working with each other. You're special to me. I enjoy the conversations we have, and the relationships we have, and I care about you. But we're being lazy because instead of saying, I care about you, we just say, you're family to me. And that's not true. We're not family. We're co workers, and I could fire you if you suck at your job. I can care about you and fire you. Family members don't fire each other. Way to hit the last, the topic that I am just, oh my god, I hate that language so much.

Irina:

I had to, because I love your explanation. And actually that's a point of view that I don't think it's put too much out there, but you nailed it perfectly that it puts a stress and you. People are guilting you into sometimes making the wrong choices about yourself, your actual family, your development, your career growth, and everything, just because they're holding you where they are feeling comfortable having you. So I'm very happy that you Wrapped it up with this one. It was a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. And everyone watch this space because quite soon we're going to restart our webinars. And Dan and I will have the pleasure of inviting you to be with us on the next topics.

Dan:

Thanks so much. This was wonderful. I appreciate it. Thank you as well.

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Irina Hollatz (Mateeva)

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