Part 2 - Mental Health in Contact Centers, WFM teams and more with Craig Fearn

In this episode of WFM Unfiltered, we're diving into the second part of our insightful conversation with Craig Fearn, the Wellbeing Ambassador for the Institute of Directors in the UK. With over 22 years of experience in mental wellbeing, Craig brings a wealth of knowledge on how to foster a healthier workplace environment.

Last time, we discussed the challenges of mental health in contact centers and WFM teams, shedding light on the often overlooked struggles these professionals face. In this follow-up episode, Craig delves deeper into practical strategies for investing in employee wellbeing. He shares invaluable insights on proactive measures companies can take to prevent burnout and promote a positive work culture.

Craig also discusses the financial benefits of prioritizing mental health, revealing how a small investment in wellbeing can yield significant returns for businesses. He explains the importance of creating a supportive environment where employees feel valued and heard, ultimately leading to increased productivity and job satisfaction.

Don't miss out on Craig's expert advice on how to transform your workplace into a mentally healthy space. Whether you're a leader looking to improve your team's wellbeing or an employee seeking ways to manage stress, this episode offers actionable tips that can make a real difference.

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Craig on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-fearn1/ 

The LightHouse Collective: https://www.thelighthouse-collective.co.uk/

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Transcript

Irina: 0:18

For me, companies should have some mechanisms in place to secure that this does not happen. Or at least eliminates the majority of reasons for this happening. What can you speak to me a little bit more about that? How are, is stuff happening or changing in the corporate world? Do the, do companies tend to invest more? Because I'm going to share one story before I give you the word back. I have worked at a place where they were preaching about honesty. Tell us how you feel and we're going to take this into account and we're going to change stuff so you feel great about the work and stuff like that. The worst thing you can do to yourself was being honest because at the moment when you were actually saying how you feel about your job, about your role, about the environment, that's where issues started happening from you. from the top down. What can we do about these situations?

Craig: 1:17

If I could fix it all, I would I'd be out of work. I think the I think there's a few things to bear in mind, look there's good and bad everywhere. There are companies that are extraordinary. in how far they go To look after their stuff. And, off the top of my head, I can think of at least a dozen where they do everything that is possible for them to do. And they have bought into the proactive, fix it when it's a little knock. rather than the reactive, let's replace the engine when it's an awful lot more expensive. I think the interesting thing is that as businesses, whether we're call centres, or we're multinational brands, or whatever we might be we do budget for risk. We budget for never events. We budget for things that may go wrong. But what we don't budget for is our people going wrong. So we look at the, well what happens if there's a a flood and our supplier can't get us what we need in time. And we've got a plan in place so we can actually go to a different provider that we've already resourced, sourced, know what they're all about and can just switch. We have things in place should there be fires in our buildings, where we evacuate, we know proactively that this is, it is, now we've never had a fire in our building, but we know that if there was a fire in our building, we're okay. Because we've already worked out the right way to go out, how we sort all this stuff out, and this is the thing. But we don't do this with mental wellbeing. We don't do this with our staff. We don't sit back and go, okay, well, look, if, 40 percent of our staff have gone off with some form of mental well being in the last 12 months. What should we have done differently? What could we have done differently? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again? How do we, excuse me, how do we look forward and put a plan in place to mitigate this? Before it even happens. And again, I think I was saying earlier on, it's very much in the sort of realms of insurance where, you buy insurance for the what ifs, you pay your monthly fee and everything else on the basis that if something happens, you have insurance to pay for it. Now, Excuse me. In most cases, it's also a legal requirement to have insurance in place for your car or your home or whatever the case might be. We have that side of it where regulation from governments and others have advanced to the point where, as opposed to just saying we need a physically and healthy working environment, physically and mentally healthy working environment, whatever that means. Some places, some people are actually now going further and say, look, no, actually it needs to be more than just this, little ambiguous wording where, you could argue that as long as you don't shout at someone all day it's okay from a sort of a mentally stable point of view. Hammits. It's very easy. I'm in the UK. We have the NHS. There's an awful lot of businesses that quite regularly say to me, I'm not the NHS. I am not here to fix people. I'm not here to pay for these people. To go private effectively and bypass the wait lists and bypass the sort of lack of provision. And in many respects, they're absolutely right. They aren't there to replace the NHS. That's not their, they're a workspace. But what they are there to do is to look after the people that work for them while they're working for them, because that's just the right thing to do. And,

Irina: 5:15

I have an argument towards you, sorry for interrupting you, but I feel very passionate about, I would say maybe it's a little bit of a historical argument that will say, people will say from the corporate world, but we're paying you. And you knew that we're paying you to execute this job. And however it affects you, you can have the decision to leave. You can have the decision to stay, but you're getting rewarded for executing this job for us. So it's not our responsibility to make sure that you're fine.

Craig: 5:52

The counter argument to this has been presented a lot, and there's a lot of people that are aware of the numbers and the stats and the figures. Deloitte in their Thrive report put some meat on the bones, I think it was about six, six years ago, which has been updated ongoing. But basically for every 1 you invest in your staff, your return is 6. Now, I don't know of any other investment you can make in your business where you're getting a 6 to 1 return. It's astronomical money and, to say that I'm paying for you to do a job, you're perfectly right. You are paying for me to do that job. But While I'm doing that job, it's also your responsibility to ensure that I'm doing it in a safe way, in a safe environment that doesn't hurt me and damage me, because what you're not paying for is everything else attached that's me. So if I'm a computer programmer, you're paying for me to program. But what you're not paying for me to do is ignore everything else that's going on around me while I'm programming because that's just, it just won't happen. It's just not a thing. To actually close down this argument, the main driver, if you want to talk about money is the fact that it has been established, proven, written about for years that in actuality, the biggest Improvement spend cost average you can make is to look after your stat. If you think that, let's try and distill this a little bit more. So let's say we've got a an executive and that executive comes into a company so that he's been hired by the senior team. Now, he comes into the company, he's new to the company, so he now spends six months getting up to speed with the company and all the bits and bobs that are going on in the company and all the politics and all the role and everything else because whilst he's come from somewhere else, he still needs to get to know the ins and outs of what he's doing. We'll be generous and we'll say that takes six months to actually get him right up to productivity level. So now he starts going and implementing his things that are going on, he starts changing stuff, he starts moving stuff around, but now he starts getting the pressure from on high because he had that honeymoon grace period when he was hired. where everyone was leaving him alone to bed in and everyone was like no. You leave him. It'll be fine. He just needs to get his feet under the desk and work out what's going on. So now he's come in and all the gloves were off now cause we've had our six months and the board and whoever expecting massive changes. Now, again, if these expectations are realistic. This individual stays, and he continues to work, and he sees his plans out, and actually, cost wise, that's a good thing. Because, he wants to be seeing these plans out, and actually, if you've costed these plans and started them, if you stop, restart, stop, do something else, stop, change, this is all money. That's going. So let's go back to our employee. So the pressure's now starting to come on. He's still doing what he's doing. He believes completely in what he's done because you've hired him to do this. But now the pressure's got too much because people want too much. And what they're asking for is unrealistic expectations. So he goes back and he says, look, this is unrealistic. This is if he's got a good enough relationship. If he hasn't, then he just keeps quiet, or she, and they keep going, and then they go off sick with burnout. So now this person's gone off sick with burnout. You need someone to act up or recruit someone into a temporary role while this person's recovering. So now we have the expense of going out and getting someone to act up or going out, spending on a recruitment agent to bring a new person in to work on a temporary contract to just keep things ticking along while this person's off long term sick. So the person comes back, nothing's changed. Everything's still the same way it was. After a couple of weeks, the pressure from on high has got too much again, and again, I keep saying on high can also come from below. Where, lots and lots of people are squeezing that sort of middle management level or, the executive level where edicts are passed down, and then they have to find a way of passing them down to the next level, but make it more palatable and put it into sort of human English. Rather than notes and figures and everything else on a chalkboard. So this person decides, you know what, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to hang around. I'm an overachiever. I'm a well paid guy, girl. I can go and do something else. And they leave for another job. So this has now taken us 18 months. So they came in, had six months to bed in, they had three months with ill health or issues. And. At the end of the eight months or four, seven months, nine months, they've had enough and they've gone, I'm good at what I do. I'm a great talent. I would be an asset to any other business. You don't appreciate me. So if we take stock of numbers, we've had to recruit him in the first place, which has cost tens of thousands in recruitment agent fees and a package for them to come across or move into the role. We've then had to have someone acting up during that six month period when this person's been betting themselves in. So we've been paying their salary plus. 80 percent for the other person. We've then had this person off with burnout where we've been paying them and we're paying someone to act up. And then we've had this person leave, which means I've now got to spend on recruitment to bring in another person on another package to start the process all over again. So I call this the middle management merry go round. Where, effectively people jump on and move around. Now if we work out how much that's cost, we're talking hundreds of thousands of pounds at that level, or hundreds of thousands of euros. And what have we achieved? Well nothing, because the next person that comes in goes through exactly the same process 18 months. So we're just hemorrhaging money. Whereas in actuality, if we sit and we work it out from a, just a pure cash point of view, and again, I know this is incredibly cold because we're dealing with people, but just from, a finance director, if they need convincing that doing stuff about this is a good thing, think about. actually supporting this person and looking after them and changing the situation and listening to what they're having to say about the issues that they've got, focusing potentially on the culture, changing a bit of this, that isn't going to cost you the same amount of money as it's going to cost you every 18 months to replace a senior manager. Now, if you filter that then down into the rest of your workforce, and remember, we're only working on one person for 18 months, let's go down. We're back at our call center and we've got staff coming and going regularly all the time and we've got to train them so we need a training department and we've got to train them again when they've got an issue but instead of finding out what the issue is we put them in training to do Because training has now become the sort of exit route from the company. If you're doing badly, we'll train you. If you're still doing badly, we'll train you again and then we'll get rid of you. So effectively training is now being viewed as this sort of Oh, I'm for the chop kind of scenario. So no one actually wants training, which is ridiculous because training is the thing that should help them in their job, but no amount of training is going to help them. If they're burnt out and they're having issues elsewhere or they've got mental health problems, whatever the case might be, you can train me on a call till the cows come home. It isn't going to change. I am still going to have these issues. So of course for everyone that's coming in at this level, it's less money. But it's still money. You still have to set them up on your HR. You still have to sort them out in all the backroom stuff. It then has a knock on effect into the hire teams.

Irina: 14:50

I would also argue that for every person that is dealing with, let's call it stress and anxiety and whatever other terminology we might be using, it also have knock on effect of the quality of how they're handling your customers or your employees. You can put in that front, but at some point it's going to catch up to you. You are going to be less productive and you might be trying your best, but something that will usually cost you, I don't know, 15 minutes, it might cost you 45 just because you are not calm, that you're not in the right mindset. And actually the thing that I wanted to ask you specifically about WFM Again, I'm very passionate about it, not only because I'm a WFM er myself, but because this is a topic that nobody talks about. We just don't care about their mental health. And the reality is that in every single company, whether it is a contact center, whether it's a retail, healthcare, whatever, you have a handful of people, one, two, five, a bit more, that are dealing with the structure, with the foundation, with the employees, for the entire organization. So this is a tremendous amount of pressure that's put on you. And I was wondering when you start feeling anxious, when you start feeling stressed, and when you start addressing your issues, Who has the responsibility to basically raise that topic? Is it on you as an employee, or it is on someone above who needs to make sure that every single department, whether we're talking about IT, HR, WFM, has that mental well being under control, and you have the mechanisms to make your people feel okay.

Craig: 16:45

For me, action starts at the top and it works its way down. So without the buy in of the people at the very top, no matter how great. The guys are trying to put something in place if the people at the very top of the business are laughing it off and aren't on board with it and don't really care you're fighting a losing battle to start with, because, they're going to be very negative in, in their views as to what happens. Again, if you have senior leaders who are on board with this, It is a massive plus. The next sort of thing to, to identify is the culture of the business that you're working in. So effectively, and people say, Oh, we manage our culture. We go out on a Friday and have a pint and, talk about, whatever. For me, if you're working on the culture that you want within your business, I want my business to be psychologically safe. I want people within my business to feel empowered to come forward if they've got an issue and say I've got an issue. I want them to trust us to be able to deal with that issue in a really sensitive and positive way, rather than a negative way. sort of blame game, shame the person who's coming forward, take it, go back, the whole sort of man up in inverted commas equation that, we suffer from in so many institutions not only in in mental well being in businesses. Culture and culture changes and actually establishing the culture if, if you're a business owner or you're a senior leader. For me, it's about establishing a culture of a business that you would be happy to come and work in. If you were at one of these lower levels, and if you're growing a business, it's never losing sight of why you started the business in the first place. It's actually going back to those fundamental basics when there were three of you in an office. Chuckling away about what was going on. And, when you found out somebody was sick, you messaged them, asked if they needed anything, can I pop, can I get you anything from the shop type of thing that, that sort of small business feel, but in a large business environment. And, it can be achieved and there are some really good examples of how it can be done. And there are some really amazing professionals who specialize in culture change, who look at things in incredible detail and incredible depth. But again, if you're only paying lip service to change and you're only paying lip service to these things because you think it's the right thing to do and then everyone will go quiet about it for a while and we can get on with what we were doing before, then actually nothing. That you do is going to make a difference because it's continually going to be undermined and it's continually going to be pulled away. I have my own business and I've made My business, I hope to mirror my own values and I support my staff and I'm, there, there's ways of people reaching out and giving me ideas and changing things. We're all encouraged to talk to each other. About whatever it is that we want to talk to, there's an open door policy. There's the, actually, when the bell goes or the horn blows, that's the end of your work day. You can disconnect. You have the right to disconnect. Look, if you're doing a job where it is imperative There are other ways of allowing yourself that break, but actually for most of us who may be working 9 5 office, or certainly in your case, that right to disconnect and go home and hang up your work phone or turn off your work emails and then not expect to come back in the following morning and have an absolute roasting from somebody who tried getting hold of you at quarter to nine at night because they needed an answer to a question. Is a fundamental right. You are not on the clock 24 7. Just because you were paid a wage, it doesn't mean someone owns you. It's all about the fact that, you are being paid to do a job and that job has its limits and its limitations. as detailed in your employment contract and everything when you sign it, because it's all set out and it tells you your working hours and what you're supposed to be doing and how it's supposed to work around and absolutely people are asked to do things that are outside of this and they do it and you know what they're more likely to do it. If they're happy with the business and they're comfortable with what's going on, they're going to come forward and they're going to say, okay, fine. If there's overtime, I'll do overtime because it's my choice to do overtime rather than you forcing me to work all these extra hours that actually I have no control over whatsoever. Because if I put my phone off, I know that the next morning I'm going to turn it on to messages from someone having to go at me for just not answering a phone when I'm not. in work, which again, mobile phones, computers, the whole sort of incredible world that we live in. The more connectivity that we have, laptops, webcams, the fact that I'm able to have this conversation with you from hundreds and hundreds of miles away is an amazing thing. But it's my right to be able to turn it off and not engage with it when I choose to not engage with it. It's about me being able to exercise the fact that, you know what, I'm really sorry, I don't want to be part of this. I don't want to be part of, I don't need to hear all this clutter on social media. I need me time. I need to be able to shut off, go away, go for a nice walk in the countryside, play with my kids, enjoy my family. I That's when the balance comes. And when you have, it sounds so cliche, but when you have a balance, life is a lot easier

Irina: 22:46

And,

Craig: 22:47

because, you are in that scenario where you're getting the best of both worlds. And if you have an employer that is all about giving you that balance and supporting you to get there, what they get in return is All of you, when you're at work, you are the committed individual who goes into that workspace and you say, you know what, these guys look after me, they value me, they want me here. And when you're talking to your friends. about your job. You're not, had to go in and da, you're like, you know what we did the other day? We did this, and this. Then you go on social media and you post and you say, look, my job's the best job in the world. And you think about the actual sort of collateral knock on in terms of passive marketing. That comes from staff saying positive things about their employer. How infrequently it happens. How many times have you gone on to a social media site and seen people posting great things about their employer? You don't see it. Lots of people posting like, Oh bloody hell, I had to go into work again, or da. And even now they're worried about posting that, because their employer will go onto their social media and go, Well hang on, you've been saying something negative.

Irina: 24:03

Or you're doing it in the hope that you're going to be noticed as an advocate for your company. And this is the way for you to achieve a better position, for example. And that's not to say that there aren't people who genuinely endorse their company. There are, and thank God for that, because otherwise we would have been in a deep issue. But as a wrap, I, what I'm hearing from you, and I wanted to summarize it, is I'm hearing that if you are a lead, a manager, a director, CEO, or any other type of leading role, you are in a position of power and you can make the space secured not only from physical standpoint, but from a mental standpoint for your employees as well. And the reality is that we work, we live in a time where We are notorious for how poor our mental health is at the moment. So I feel like all of us who either have our own business, working with people, collaborating with people, we shouldn't only talk about it, but we should make some kind of active actions to change that. And for me, that's. And that's the thing that kind of bothers me, is that in a lot of companies, mental health and taking after your people comes down to, I'm gonna give you a voucher for a dinner, okay? That's amazing, that's perfect, I'm gonna have a free meal And what else? And for me, it's all about the active effort to look after your people, to check in with them. How are you actually feeling? No, don't give me the, yeah, I'm okay. This is great. This is amazing. And then see the person look themselves in the bathroom crying for 20 minutes, just because they can't cope with the stress. And thank you so much, Craig, for this conversation. I certainly hope that you will visit me again on this podcast. podcast to continue that conversation because it's so important. And I don't think it has ever been more important than now. And we need more people like you that are ambassadors and that can really shed the light of what companies can do to have happier or healthier employees. So thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation.

Craig: 26:21

more than welcome. Thanks for having me.