Roadmap Rants & WFM Realities - Bryan Hamann

Join us for another exciting episode of WFM Unfiltered as we sit down with Bryan Hamann, a seasoned Workforce Management expert with over a decade of experience in optimizing resources and capacity planning. Bryan has worked with notable companies such as Charter Spectrum and Figure Lending, and he brings a wealth of knowledge and a no-nonsense approach to the table.

In this episode, we dive deep into the realities of vendor roadmaps in the WFM space. Bryan shares his candid experiences and frustrations with the promises made by vendors and the often lackluster follow-through on those promises. You'll hear firsthand accounts of what it’s like to navigate the world of WFM tools, from initial selection to long-term use.

Bryan doesn’t hold back as he discusses the importance of transparency and communication from vendors, and how the lack of these can severely impact the efficiency and satisfaction of WFM professionals. We also touch on the emerging focus on AI in WFM and why Bryan believes vendors should focus on fixing existing issues before chasing the next big thing.

Whether you're a WFM professional, a business leader, or just curious about the inner workings of workforce management, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice. Don’t miss this chance to learn from Bryan’s extensive experience and his passionate take on improving the WFM industry.

Subscribe to our channel at https://www.youtube.com/@wfmunfiltered?sub_confirmation=1 and join us on July 16th, 2024, at 3 PM UK time to catch the full episode with Bryan Hamann.

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Transcript

Irina: 0:18

Hello WFMers out there and all friends of WFM, I'm your host, Irina Mateva, and this is WFM Unfiltered, a podcast by WriteWFM. Today, we're going to Reno, Nevada, and what a rant we have prepared for you! But before we start with our topic for today, let me quickly introduce you to my sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Community WFM. I don't know about you, but is there anything more annoying when a tool is created about a tool? Any kind of consideration and thought about the planners that are actually supposed to be using it. That's one thing that's driving me absolutely up the wall when somebody's trying to sell me something, but they cannot relate to my operational reality. And luckily, Community WFM is a tool that is created by planners for planners, and they are great guys and an amazing team. So if you are on the lookout for a new solution, please reach out, get yourselves on a demo, and see if this is the right solution for you. And if not, Please tag them under that episode with a heart emoji, so they know that WFN loves them back because they made that episode available for us.

Bryan Hamann: 1:37

again

Irina: 1:39

that, let's be on to the show. Hello, Brian. How are you

Bryan Hamann: 1:43

Hello there. Oh, it's 4th of July. Happy to be here.

Irina: 1:48

Oh, that's true. Actually. Happy 4th of July. Oh my God. I have completely forgotten about that. I'm so sorry.

Bryan Hamann: 1:57

Oh, no, it's fine. It's great.

Irina: 1:59

for today?

Bryan Hamann: 2:00

Not really. No, it's it's a lot of fireworks and I have two dogs. Really, it's going to be a Trazdo night for the dogs while we rest in the living room and watch some shows. All

Irina: 2:12

getting a little bit annoyed about, you just showed me Lucy. I actually thought that Lucy is the only one, but I see now that I missed one more. Maybe at the end of the episode, I'm gonna ask you to bring the other one as well on camera.

Bryan Hamann: 2:27

right.

Irina: 2:28

But! The topic that we have for today is actually about vendors and their roadmaps. But before we start talking a little bit more about it from a user perspective, can you share a little bit more about your background with us?

Bryan Hamann: 2:43

Yeah so about, I've been in WFM for about a decade. I started as most WFM people do. I started in a contact center. I actually started in I, there was a contact center here for, uh, internet and DSL. If you remember DSL, that's old, right? We're talking like, 18 so years ago. And from there I got into dispatch and was working with some cable companies and while I was there, I, one of the options that they had open was what they called, uh, workforce it wasn't, it was a workforce admin, but rather than the planning out, it was really, it was like RTA, but for the techs out in the field. And it was, we were like, Constantly moving them. Oh, someone says I'm going to be an hour behind. Like we were taking the rest of their route, moving it around until they finished up. And then I went into typical contact center after that worked there for a few years, started as a specialist, moved into analysts and then moved into leadership. And from there I've been in leadership across a few different companies for WFM. My, my last company I was with I did a duo leadership, not just with WFM, but with Telephony. So I was like super big into the Telephony product and I got to really understand not just The pieces that we in WFM have to deal with on a daily basis, right? But the other pieces, the other side, the data, making sure that everything was coming in correctly from the telephony platform into the WFM platform. It was really, actually really nice because it was easy for me to say, there's a discrepancy and go into the the platform and find that discrepancy. So it was it was, Something new cause startup. So there's a lot of structure in most contact centers nowadays, but when you're in a startup, you can get into positions like that and do things like that. So I had a lot of fun. And so really a lot of my recent experience I think has been in product, which is why we, when you talk about roadmaps, that has been my life for the last two years.

Irina: 4:40

And it is such a great topic and probably we're going to end up making a second episode about the ACDs, telephony platforms and the data quality that comes from them because then I can run so much, probably we're going to end up being five days from this episode. But. For me, it, what is really important when we're talking about roadmaps is that it is the same concept in WFM tools as it is in telephony platforms. And my experience is that it's similar journey. So last time when we spoke behind the scene, actually, you ended up quite energetically talking about some specific examples that you had. So I'm hoping you can bring the same energy to this conversation. So tell me, what's up with the roadmaps what's happening once you have a tool in place?

Bryan Hamann: 5:32

It's not just when you have the tool in place, it's also when you're looking at tools. Like when like I said, I was working for a startup and in general, people switch WFM and telephony platforms about every three to five years in, companies people don't tend to stick with a platform unless they, Don't really want to move away from it because they're either super invested or because they don't really just, they just don't want to spend the money to invest in a new platform. And what ends up happening is you may get stuck on a platform from 10 years ago and you don't, you didn't buy the piece that has upgrades. And of course with the upgrades comes all the roadmaps. But one of the things I noticed and struggled with a lot was when I was looking at. WFM platforms across the board. I'd ask clarifying questions. I'll be like, Oh, can we do XYZ? For example, one of the big pieces I would always ask, because I find this is super useful in scheduling is, do you have the ability to put a note On an exception on a scheduled event so that the agent who has to deal with this on a day to day knows what the heck it's for. I can't tell you how many times me in WFM I've gotten questions of, Hey, what's this on my schedule? Or a leader reaching out to me and being like, Hey, I noticed that they have a meeting on their schedule. And I'm like yeah, it was a meeting requested by another manager while you were out. And so like questions like that. And the first answer I always get is. Yeah, that's on our roadmap. I got that answer before switching to a platform. Two years went by. I was on that platform every time I asked, Oh, it's on the roadmap. Oh, it's on the roadmap. Where is it on the roadmap? And it got to the point where once I started looking for new platforms, the first thing I asked was to see their roadmap. And let me tell you, the majority of the companies that were out there, Refuse. They were like, Oh, we don't, that's an internal roadmap. We don't really show. And I'm like how can you tell me if something's on your roadmap, explain to me that it's built for the future, but you won't even show me what the future of your product looks like. Even if it's a, a six, nine month roadmap, right? Like the rest of the year, right? I just want to get an understanding of what you're working on to ensure I'm investing in a platform that is going to last and be scalable and work for me. Long term out of all the companies, I think maybe one. Show me their roadmap and that they had a very structured setup. They did quarterly releases. And so they were like, Hey, we have our, all of our releases set. For the next few quarters. We have our engineers set on this. They're working on it. And they showed me what their roadmap was, and I pointed out night, that there was a few questions I had about their platform, regarding their. They're really, I was, I looked at it and I was like, Hey guys, like this platform looks like it hasn't had a facelift. Is that on your roadmap? And they were like, Oh yeah, that's actually, if you look here in quarter four of this year, we plan on making some updates to our UI system to make it look, flashier. I wouldn't say flashy, but really make it look like it wasn't in Windows XP. And so that's a, it's a. Big struggle. And it's not just with WFM, right? Like you said, it's with a lot of products, especially products like ACD platforms where honestly it's, it surprises me because there isn't, I feel like in WFM, everything's really out there, right? Everything exists on another platform. So really when somebody is bringing an idea or something, it's probably because they saw it somewhere else and they were like, Hey, why don't you have this? And it's, it always baffles me that, a lot of these companies, Don't want to put something or we'll tell you it's on a roadmap, but what really happens is if you don't put something out there like they have often, you'll see lots of forums, right? Different companies have forums where you can submit your ideas and unless you get a lot of traction there and you're pushing and you're pushing and you're pushing, oftentimes all of your ideas just get, yeah, that's interesting, but it looks like it might be a bit too much work. Let's put it over here for a bit, and maybe we'll get to it in a few quarters. Then I get stuck into a corner, forgot about it until somebody complains about it again. Especially because, go ahead.

Irina: 9:37

Now, absolutely. I think all of our listeners can now actually get to the conclusion that you're super passionate about this topic for a very good reason, because as someone who has worked with So many vendors. It is true. Some are doing a much better job than others, but in my opinion, what I can describe Roadmap is actually the process of putting client ideas into the bin. So that's how I always describe it. And whilst I, I absolutely understand that making any type of improvements and enhancements in the system is a difficult process. You want to fix one thing, you might break the code for 10 different things. You have a lot of customers that are live on the platform, so you can't just do it in the moment. And I absolutely fully understand where vendors are coming from. However, I would say this thing, it's absolutely

Bryan Hamann: 10:34

I'm so

Irina: 10:35

Unexcusable for me as a user, as a customer to not get any type of information, whether my idea is taken seriously, what are the ideas of the rest of the customers, how much time it's going to take, is it on the roadmap? Is it being worked on? If it's not being worked on, why? What else is being worked on? And this is the thing that honestly drives me up the wall because this is lack of transparency to your customers. And this is where you start losing your users. So the way that I think you mentioned in last time to me as well is basically the way to defend your position, if you're a user of a certain vendor is to use public forums and to start asking and to start ranting. Because once you do that, You more often start getting replies because then you might affect someone who is in the job to get a WFA or any other SAS solution in place. So I think it's a huge topic and it's

Bryan Hamann: 11:36

Silence.

Irina: 11:40

you're looking for a new solution, right? You're being sold everything. Our tool can vacuum clean. Yes. It's gonna make you coffee, it will clean your house, don't worry, it's gonna be your best friend. And then you end up wanting just small tweaks or, you know what, I need this major thing to do my job well. We're scaling up, I can't do anything with the current status. You're the only one, kinda, so it don't really care about you, but it's in the bin. If you want, you can raise your idea in our bin. We're going to prioritize it with the rest of the ideas.

Bryan Hamann: 12:17

lot of people have heard

Irina: 12:18

That's where we really are with roadmaps.

Bryan Hamann: 12:21

Yeah, it's honestly, the one thing that kind of stood out for me is when you mentioned public forums, because the only time I've really gotten any response, any push, any feedback, anything, was when I've gone to public forums and openly complained about something. There was a time where I went on and I was like, guys, I'm really struggling with this. I don't like this platform because it doesn't do what I want. Can you tell me a different platform that gives me what I want? And let me tell you, I had three vendors on me like that. And I also had the company I was working with say Oh I woke up to three emails and a meeting invite on my calendar the next morning saying Hey, let's talk about this. Let's work with this. Let's work with you. Let's get you everything that you need in order to move forward. I'm like where were you the last. Half year when I submitted all of these trouble tickets, when I asked you what the where these things were on the roadmap, when you told me when I started that what, when I move with your platform that, Oh, things are like this right now, but within with, by the end of next year, things are going to be like this and I'm sitting here still in the same state that I was when I started and, having to log into three different places to change your schedule, wondering when this is finally going to get fixed. And it's frustrating as a end user. And, like that, I'm not even talking about just as a manager. I'm talking about by my analysts, right? Like I had, four or five analysts underneath me who are like, Brian, you said this would be fixed. I'm like, guys, I'm just. Parenting to you, what they told me, I was hoping to get back with this. I'm going onto their forums regularly. I'm going onto their website and seeing their release notes and I'm seeing things. But the majority of what's happening is fixes, right? And fixes are great, right? Fixes make things that are supposed to work, work. But the lifeblood of where a consumer is at is new things, right? Like you can't just keep selling the same old thing. Some people. But nowadays with everything changing and I even say that the dreaded word of AI, right? Like with AI being put into the bunch, right? Everybody is super focused on things like that. And all of those things are new things. So what ends up happening is a company who is. Has been focused on WFM, who's been focused on quality, right? Like they see this shiny new toy, they see the shiny new product and they invest all of their time, energy and effort there. And then all of the products that we use on a day to day get put onto the sidelines. We don't get new things. We get bug fixes, right? We get. We get told, Hey, we're trying to make our platform better. So we're investing in other things that will make our platform better eventually. But we're sitting here in the dust for two years, wondering when we're going to finally get that update so that we don't have to log into three places to make one change. And it's just I'm super passionate about it cause I lived in it, right? And I lived in it in the telephony space. I lived in it in the WFM space. I lived with it in the quality space, and I will say there are some companies out there that take your feedback and implement it. I worked with a really great quality company that took that, that, took all of our feedback cause we were, I wouldn't say a pilot customer, but we were definitely one of their bigger customers. And and that's a, that's one thing I will say, if you guys are looking for a product and you want something that will change with you, find a newer product, find a newer group that will, Take your feedback and implement it because a lot of these newer platforms aching for that feedback, right? Like they want to know how they can improve. They want to know how they can make their product better and make it better than what's already out there. And people who are struggling with, Platforms that they've been on for years. Platforms that have been out for years that have, that are I wouldn't say archaic, but they have a great foundation, right? They built that. They've they've worked on that and that's what they sell. But there are people out there that are making newer products that are like, Hey, we want to take what you guys, your feedback and implement it to our platform to make it the platform. That's going to be right for you. And with a lot of startups these days, that's what they're looking for, right? They're looking for newer platforms that work with their tech stack. That work with them and want to grow with them.

Irina: 16:27

Yeah, and I would join you with this one and I will say, not only startups, but very often smaller players are actually much more open to feedback because, they want to be known, they want to get the bigger market share, so they're more willing to be flexible, whilst bigger companies that has been on the market for a while, They're mostly driven by sales, so their kind of rationale is we've been on the market for 25 years and we have sold this and this, so Push more sales, push for more sales. The product is good. Otherwise we wouldn't be on the market for 25 years. And this is how we're basically stuck where we are. But you mentioned one more thing that honestly, it really triggers me. AI, because yes, there is a huge hype. AI is here, it will stay, it will grow, it will evolve, it will support us in our roles and our tools, but can you please fix what we have instead of focusing on all you know what we're gonna have flying cars and your WFM2 is gonna fly in the air and it's gonna bring you lunch and it's gonna do all those stuff if we start applying AI. Fix the basics, that's all we want. Things, the small things that will make our life better. And there is so much valuable input from users. And I like your passion. And your passion comes from a user perspective. So I keep on saying one thing. The only reason why there is business for vendors is because of people like me, people like you, people who bite to use it on a daily basis. So I actually want to raise that ask from all of you, please guys, listen to us, because this is one way that you can make us hate your product is if you're not transparent, if you don't communicate, quite frankly, it is very disrespectful for me as a person, as a professional, if I'm telling you, how can you do your product better? Or how can you support me do my job easier? And I'm hearing nothing. So I would rather have someone tells me, you know what? We have so many things going on. We promise you it's in our backlog. We're going to keep you informed. And every three months someone is telling me, okay, you know what? We still don't have the resources rather than me raising something, getting the automated reply of, Oh, thank you for your suggestion is now in the bin and never hear about it ever again. So, yeah, I, it's a topic that we can stay on this goal for quite some time. I would like to ask you one thing, Brian, because you're getting me very fired up about it. Is there any other suggestion that maybe you can say to users out there that are struggling and being in the same position? Or maybe even to vendors that are not necessarily kind of communicating very well with their customers at the moment?

Bryan Hamann: 19:26

For end users who are struggling, I think the one piece of advice that I can give you is to go to a public forum, right? There are plenty of public forums out there that are geared towards working individuals, and if you take your, if you find groups find groups of like minded individuals, workforce management groups, telephony groups, and explain your frustrations there, because that's where The, not only do other end users live in those groups, but also vendors. And if they see your feedback, your pushback your frustration, they will deal with it. Because they don't want that out there. So from an end user perspective, if you're really struggling and you're not feeling like you're being heard, go out there and say what you say what your problem is and you will get it resolved for vendors. I really my recommendation is you guys need to focus on growth, right? And I don't just talk about growth from a sales perspective. I talk about growth in the product that you're using, right? Or you're creating. If you are not. Investing in its future. If you're not constantly making it better, all you're going to lead yourself to a stagnancy and stagnancy. While when you have a great product that has a very specific niche, that's one thing, but when you're in a environment like we are in WFM, where. Our needs change on a month to month basis, new products come out that we need to get connected to, new telephony platforms, anything that you can think of, everything changes, and while the base Piece of the job that we do, right? Making sure that we have enough people and they are where we need them to be. Doesn't change the environment that we are in does just think about just not even 10 years ago, right? Like phone, chat, email were the thing. Right now we're sitting here with SMS. We're looking at social media platforms and everybody's, quick to implement these new connections, but we don't really think about how that's going to impact the product and where we're going in the future as a whole and what we're moving to. As you said Oh, flying cars, flying cars is great, but you know what I would rather have than a flying car, a really great car that does everything I want, has all the bells and whistles and gets me to where I need to go. And while the flying car could show growth in the future, what I don't want to hear is that flying car is on the road map.

Irina: 21:49

This is a great one and you know what, it's great advice because I think users and also vendors can only benefit from honest conversations about it because this is how we truly feel and this is why it was such a passion of mine to create that podcast because Often, I feel like from WFM perspective, we don't have a platform to raise what's happening behind the scenes, how this is impacting our work, how frustrating it is, how you're literally annoyed with every single thing that happens, and you're getting a lot of stuff in your way, and you're unable to do a good job. I feel much better after this conversation. Did we get it out of our systems? Oops. Or, we have more to rant about it.

Bryan Hamann: 22:37

I don't think I'll ever not have something to rant about when it comes to this. There's always something out there I, like I said, AI, like that's the big piece out on the market. And that's what everybody's focused on. And what's the next thing?

Irina: 22:51

Absolutely, and you know what, I'm going to invite you for a second one where we can rant specifically about AI, because I feel myself Every day Oh my God, stop. Please just do not go there. Do not mention AI anymore. Just focus on what you have to do right now. But this was a great conversation. You brought amazing perspective and great energy. And thank you so much for taking my offer to be on the podcast until next time. But if you would like to sponsor the show, get in touch and every comment, and share help. Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you want to know more about the show sponsors, just check the episode notes and Brian, you're taking my offer for a second episode. That's for sure.

Bryan Hamann: 23:39

Yeah, I really enjoy this, so thank

Irina: 23:42

Perfect. Then this is a wrap and enjoy the 4th of July.

Bryan Hamann: 23:46

you.